A priest in my ward was ordained to elder - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 06-09-2008, 02:34 PM

He was ordained by the YM President. He had brought his priesthood line, which interestingly, was a high priest line, not an elders line. I guess when you become a high priest, the elder ordination line is not the one that is "official".

Anyway, I was looking at the names, and saw Delbert Stapley. I didn't say anything. But I just kinda hoped to myself that Stapley is not in my line, nor will ever be in my line should I be ordained as a high priest.

But then again, is that really fair? I'm sure that there is probably someone in my line who has done much worse things than Stapley, even if I find what Stapley did to be absolutely loathsome.

It goes to show that the church is populated by very imperfect human beings. I don't think God "permitted" Stapley to write that awful letter. I think God lets men, even apostles, make mistakes, even in their offices.

Yesterday was really theory colliding with reality. The theory was about Stapley's letter to Romney. The reality was seeing Stapley's line go to a kid in my ward.

Tex · 06-09-2008, 02:55 PM

One letter, and the man's entire apostolic ministry is void in Mike Waters' eyes.

Speaks volumes.

MikeWaters · 06-09-2008, 02:58 PM

as usual, exTex adds nothing.

Solon · 06-09-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

One letter, and the man's entire apostolic ministry is void in Mike Waters' eyes.

Speaks volumes.

I don't know how anyone could jump on Waters for that post, but I guess Tex just did. Waters put forth a post about nuance, ambiguity, human frailty, and divine order, and you boil it down to a clumsy, one-line response. Come on, Tex. You're smarter than that.

Tex · 06-09-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solon

I don't know how anyone could jump on Waters for that post, but I guess Tex just did. Waters put forth a post about nuance, ambiguity, human frailty, and divine order, and you boil it down to a clumsy, one-line response. Come on, Tex. You're smarter than that.

What "nuance"? "The apostles are human beings who make mistakes." What, should I bow down in awe at such an wondrous and unique observation?

I grow weary of the constant judgmentalism towards our leaders ... the implicit questioning of their leadership and inspiration. I am quite sure that if Delbert Stapley were alive today and still a member of the 12 (forget for a moment that he'd be the senior apostle), he would be fully supportive of today's policy on blacks.

Moreover, the man served honorably for nearly 30 years blessing lives, devoted to the furtherance of the Lord's kingdom, and I'm also quite sure our Father in Heaven welcomed him home when he died. He's a man any person should be proud to have received the Holy Priesthood through. People who continue to denigrate him 30-years later because they are unable to get past a stumbling block only make themselves smaller.

How's that for more than one-liner, Solon.

MikeWaters · 06-09-2008, 03:07 PM

He used his office to threaten or imply that God would strike down Romney for his support of civil rights.

Yes, he said it was his personal opinion, but he knew he was using his office.

That shows a level of spiritual smallness and callousness that is hard to comprehend. As in, unless that was a one-off, I don't think I could sustain that man.

Archaea · 06-09-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

He used his office to threaten or imply that God would strike down Romney for his support of civil rights.

Yes, he said it was his personal opinion, but he knew he was using his office.

That shows a level of spiritual smallness and callousness that is hard to comprehend. As in, unless that was a one-off, I don't think I could sustain that man.

Tex still has leader worship believing they are more righteous than the average hometeacher, bishop, YM President or stake patriarch.

If one views these men as mortal men no different at all than any other, simply possessing a different administrative responsibility, then it explains behavior such as that of Stapely.

What his status in the hereafter is will not be determined by us.

Solon · 06-09-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

What "nuance"? "The apostles are human beings who make mistakes." What, should I bow down in awe at such an wondrous and unique observation?

I grow weary of the constant judgmentalism towards our leaders ... the implicit questioning of their leadership and inspiration. I am quite sure that if Delbert Stapley were alive today and still a member of the 12 (forget for a moment that he'd be the senior apostle), he would be fully supportive of today's policy on blacks.

Moreover, the man served honorably for nearly 30 years blessing lives, devoted to the furtherance of the Lord's kingdom, and I'm also quite sure our Father in Heaven welcomed him home when he died. He's a man any person should be proud to have received the Holy Priesthood through. People who continue to denigrate him 30-years later because they are unable to get past a stumbling block only make themselves smaller.

How's that for more than one-liner, Solon?

I guess we're reading Waters' post differently. I thought it was well put, that GA's do things we might despise or condemn, but that doesn't have to cloud the big picture. Although any member of the church is somehow, whether they like it or not, an heir to both the positive and negative legacies of the leaders and members who came before, in the long run the positive can still outshine the negative.

I'm sure Stapley did a lot of good things in his life; Waters wondered if people in his own priesthood line might have done worse things than write that letter. It paints LDS leadership as a rich, complex spectrum of humanity, just as complex and ambiguous as any of us. I personally find this characterization quite appealing. But, I'm a humanist, after all.

exUte · 06-09-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

He used his office to threaten or imply that God would strike down Romney for his support of civil rights.

Yes, he said it was his personal opinion, but he knew he was using his office.

That shows a level of spiritual smallness and callousness that is hard to comprehend. As in, unless that was a one-off, I don't think I could sustain that man.

when Pres Benson was ordained President of the church?

MikeWaters · 06-09-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exUte

when Pres Benson was ordained President of the church?

No, because I didn't know anything about him.

But one of the most memorable sacrament meetings in my life was to have my Stake Patriarch Hopkins stand up and bear his testimony about prophets, he talked about Joseph Fielding Smith and the nutty things he had said, but how he was changed as prophet, and he said the same about Benson, that it had been hard for him, but the Lord had changed these men.

A complex picture of these men that is rarely presented by believing men in high positions in the church.

06-09-2008, 02:34 PM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	A priest in my ward was ordained to elder He was ordained by the YM President. He had brought his priesthood line, which interestingly, was a high priest line, not an elders line. I guess when you become a high priest, the elder ordination line is not the one that is "official". Anyway, I was looking at the names, and saw Delbert Stapley. I didn't say anything. But I just kinda hoped to myself that Stapley is not in my line, nor will ever be in my line should I be ordained as a high priest. But then again, is that really fair? I'm sure that there is probably someone in my line who has done much worse things than Stapley, even if I find what Stapley did to be absolutely loathsome. It goes to show that the church is populated by very imperfect human beings. I don't think God "permitted" Stapley to write that awful letter. I think God lets men, even apostles, make mistakes, even in their offices. Yesterday was really theory colliding with reality. The theory was about Stapley's letter to Romney. The reality was seeing Stapley's line go to a kid in my ward.

06-09-2008, 02:55 PM	#2
Tex Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,596	One letter, and the man's entire apostolic ministry is void in Mike Waters' eyes. Speaks volumes.

06-09-2008, 02:58 PM	#3
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	as usual, exTex adds nothing.

06-09-2008, 03:07 PM	#6
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	He used his office to threaten or imply that God would strike down Romney for his support of civil rights. Yes, he said it was his personal opinion, but he knew he was using his office. That shows a level of spiritual smallness and callousness that is hard to comprehend. As in, unless that was a one-off, I don't think I could sustain that man.