Pre-existence in the Bible

[Sleeping in EQ]

If you were going to try to shore up a Mormon-ish notion of the pre-existence using only the Bible, what passages would you cite?

Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20 in the apocrypha is pretty clear:

"As a child I was naturally gifted, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, bieing good, I entered an undefiled body."

Jeremiah 1:5 looks good in the NRSV too:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Does the old Jewish notion of the one creation account in Genesis indicating the creation of "souls" hold up?

It seems to me like it could be argued that "foreordination" and "predestination" in the NT are really about the discovery of what always, already existed in a Platonic sense.

Origen and Tertullian had a notion of pre-existence, but I'm interested in what Bible passages you would cite.

[DrumNFeather]

I don't have my Bible in front of me, but I would think that some of the passages in Revelation would hold up.

[ute4ever]

I don't have time to elaborate but here is a list from Keith Marston:

Job 1:6
Job 38:4-7
Jeremiah 1:4-5
John 9:1-3
2 Peter 2:4
Acts 17:26-27
Ephesians 1:4-5
Titus 1:1-2
Revelation 12:7-9
Jude 1:6
1 Peter 2:4

[Archaea]

There aren't many, as Zechariah 12:1 and the stuff in numbers is obtuse.

[RockyBalboa]

Oh I don't know....the first chapter of Genesis where God said..."Let US make man in OUR image" is a good one for starters....and the whole creation of the earth thing.

I mean where were they hanging out? The Cheers Bar in Boston trying to figure out a place where everyone knows their name?

[DrumNFeather]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Oh I don't know....the first chapter of Genesis where God said..."Let US make man in OUR image" is a good one for starters....and the whole creation of the earth thing.

I mean where were they hanging out? The Cheers Bar in Boston trying to figure out a place where everyone knows their name?

"Gooooooooddddddddddddd"

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Oh I don't know....the first chapter of Genesis where God said..."Let US make man in OUR image" is a good one for starters....and the whole creation of the earth thing.

I mean where were they hanging out? The Cheers Bar in Boston trying to figure out a place where everyone knows their name?

Who do you think is included in "us?" I have never thought that pre-mortal spirits participated in the creation, though I suppose if Christ could I don't know why others could not.

[pelagius]

Man, I thought SU would be all over this thread since he could easily argue for the concept of preexistence being a Hellenistic idea that Mormonism adopted: the Hellenization of Mormonism. A preexistence of some sort is much clearer in Greek thought than Jewish thought.

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I am not sure what the goal is? Is the goal to find evidence that other Christians would find compelling or convincing with regard to the preexistence? Is the goal to find scriptures that can be interpreted as talking about the preexistence conditional on already believing in the preexistence? The first strikes me as a tough proposition; All of the scriptures already mentioned including Jeremiah 1:4-5 can be reasonably interpreted as not implying a preexistence of spirit/soul (Of course, I think some of are consistent with a preexistence interpretation) . You are right in my view to turn to sources like the first century BCE Wisdom of Solomon. Kevin Barney has a nice article that discusses the different early sources:

http://kevingraham.org/jp3.pdf

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by pelagius

I am not sure what the goal is? Is the goal to find evidence that other Christians would find compelling or convincing with regard to the preexistence?

Is the goal to try to prove something plain and precious from a book which had many plain and precious things excised?

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Is the goal to try to prove something plain and precious from a book which had many plain and precious things excised?

I think it is far to say that Joseph Smith would have viewed it this way. Someone can correct me but doesn't the development (I don't mean this in any negative sense so replace it with revelation if you prefer) of the idea of preexistence really start with the JST of Genesis (i.e., a spiritual creation before a physical creation)? Thats got to be the earliest at least implicit development of Mormon thought on this matter since it would date back to 1832.