Genocide, pederasty, rape and murder....

[MikeWaters]

If I can get license from Indy to say that Blacks and the Priesthood was racism, then I will give license to Mitt Romney to say that polygamy was an abomination.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

The accumulation of multiple sex partners for the gratification of old men in power is, at its core, a sleazy practice. There is no way to dress it up and say that JS banging 30 young girls is somehow less sleazy than Warren Jeffs banging 30 young girls.

NS, I don't think that you are giving a fair and accurate description of polygamy as practiced by the early saints. Not that there was never abuse, but I don't think it was ever just about sex, no more than monogamous marriages are just about sex.

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

NS, I don't think that you are giving a fair and accurate description of polygamy as practiced by the early saints. Not that there was never abuse, but I don't think it was ever just about sex, no more than monogamous marriages are just about sex.

I obviously overstated my case and oversimplified the issue, but to say that polygamy wasn't about sex is a little disingenuous. I've seen enough of the male/female dynamic throughout my life to realize that men, generally, don't put up with the tiresomeness of women unless sex is on the line.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

If I can get license from Indy to say that Blacks and the Priesthood was racism, then I will give license to Mitt Romney to say that polygamy was an abomination.

Um, I can't speak for Indy, but I would definitely say that blacks and the priesthood was racism, or more specifically, that the explanations given at the time were racist. Fundamentally racism is the concept that one race is inherently superior to another, right? Is that not exactly what the "lukewarm in the war in heaven" stuff implied?

The more interesting question to me: is there a doctrine of the church that IS approved of on Cougarguard, and is there any one of the last 14 prophets who wasn't killed by God for his disobedience?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Tex

and is there any one of the last 14 prophets who wasn't killed by God for his disobedience?

Yes. Joseph Smith. He was killed by a mob.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

I've seen enough of the male/female dynamic throughout my life to realize that men, generally, don't put up with the tiresomeness of women unless sex is on the line.

I don't know that I fully buy that, but it is put so well and contains enough validity that I concede the point.

But even that said, there are/were much better and more efficient vehicles than polygamy by which a man can/could enjoy multiple sex partners. I look at myself as a fairly normal happily married man. I just can't imagine myself seeking another marriage relationship for the sole or even main purpose of the sexual benefits that may be derived. It's just too much work (primarily financial and emotional) and there are other more reasonable options available.

Yes, certainly there was a sexual component. I suspect it was a varied as it was/is in monogomous marriages.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I mean there are a lot of awful things in the world.

Which makes me wonder how limited Romney's imagination is if he can't imagine anything more awful than polygamy.

The irony of the church's relationship with the concept of polygamy in 2007 is mind-boggling. Some of our ancestors actually went to prison in defense of this practice, yet in 2007 church members beat the war drums to have polygamists arrested. The church is one of the leaders in the battle of defining marriage through constitutional amendment, which would effectively ban polygamy in the United States forever, and the Mormon presidential candidate says he can't imagine anything more awful.

Was it a righteous practice or not? Why would God command us to do something that would lead to ultimate sorrow? Do we respect the right of others to practice it as part of their religion?

In 1843, Romney would have been excommunicated for his statement. In 2007, he is lionized.

When I read the title of this I thought Waters was going to say these acts were committed by God's elect in the Old Testament.

Mormons were in a time capsule; they were in the wilderness and hailed from the American, British and Scandinavian peasantry and urban underclass. They were hardy, and tough. Some of them were tradesmen and knew something about stone cutting. But on the whole they weren't the most civilized or educated people on earth. Hardly. It was natural to recreate the bleak, uncivilized conditions that begat the Old Testament. We aren't as different from our ancient forebears as we suppose.

MikeWaters, the answer to your questions is that like the Old Testament characters, these people were hillbillies. Shrewd, tough, resilient hillbillies, but hillbillies all the same. So they engaged in many of the same abominable acts including murder, and polygamy, as their Old Testament forebears. Mormonism's ideological and cultural connection is stronger to the Old Testament than the New Testament. Don't you think?

The paradox of MikeWaters is that with his extreme levels of intelligence and moral insight he can see the Old Testament for what it is, but he can't see his own faith with a critical eye, in the cold light of day.

What you've seen with the progressive jettisoning of once cherished Mormon doctrines (see the film clip Waters posted for reference) that made Mormonism unique is this very strange tribe that arose at least a thousand years behind its time being drug into modernity and the civilized Western mainstream. Had Joseph Smith escaped to the Mexican desert and propagated his cult there maybe they'd be waging a war of terror now. But their circumstance was to be born and grow up in the bosom of enlightened America. Hence assimilation seems to be in their future. I bet there's a huge book burning going on somewhere. If I ran things I'd initiate a Mormon Doctrine bounty. $1000 for every extant copy in the world, and then liquidate them all.