praying the right way

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

UtahDan, I understand the point. But in some ways isn't this the same "everyone gets a trophy" mantra that is so common these days?

Do it right. Do it right now. No excuses.

Who is holding kids to any standards?

Who are the teachers that keep passing my priest who can barely read? maybe they think they are valuing the boy by passing. I'm not so sure.

I don't think your logic applies to a church setting. A school setting, certainly, but not church.

In church we learn line upon line, etc. and the most important thing for a young person is for church to be a soft place to land and somewhere he or she can fit in. I'm not saying relax moral standards, but do we not let a kid graduate from primary because he can't say the articles of faith from heart? What purpose does that serve?

Its no different than early morning seminary. Lets say you have a kids who comes and sleeps a lot of the time, or who doesn't attend regularly. Do you as a teacher force the issue until the kids just decides to say "screw it?" I realize that it depends a lot on the kid, but for some kids it is an enormous victory just to get them to go to church or seminary or an activity.

Anyway, a priest who is coming to church and is worthy to bless the sacrament and is moreover up there trying (you and I know not all priest will do it) ought to get the benefit of the doubt if the prayer isn't just right. The Lord will still renew our covenants notwithstanding a misplaced conjunction.

So my answer to your question is yes, maybe it is like everyone getting a trophy and while that might not make sense in some context, we ought to do everything we can reward the good efforts and participation of our kids in church. At a minimum we shouldn't erect barriers.

I remember being on the stake youth committee as a priest and being so pissed off that they wouldn't allow kids to attend to wore jeans to attend stake dances. Not exactly the same thing, but I think you get my point.

[MikeWaters]

Give the boy a chance to succeed. If you reward him for failing efforts, you do not allow him to succeed.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I'm a hardliner in that I refuse to baby people. I have high expectations and I want people to know that.

Didn't bring food on the campout? Eat grass. That's your problem. I hope you learned something about preparing.

I'm trying to mold boys into men.

People talk about how tough it is to camp. My last 15 months on my mission were camping.

I feel like I am the last generation that wasn't pampered. We had jungle gyms, teeter-totters, human-powered merry-go-rounds, we (EVERYONE) bobbed for apples, we didn't give a f*** about razorblades in our candy, we roamed outside on our bikes at the age of 5.

So yes, I guess I am a hardliner.

When you talk like this I wonder why you're not a Republican.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by jay santos

When you talk like this I wonder why you're not a Republican.

I am a Republican.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Give the boy a chance to succeed. If you reward him for failing efforts, you do not allow him to succeed.

It depends on what you mean by "fail". We had a branch president in Japan who would make the poor kids redo it if they got off on the cadence. They could have every word correct, but not have quite the right style of oration. It was brutal. And do you honestly believe the Lord cares if one word is out of order? What if the pronounciation is slightly off? Where do you draw the line?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

It depends on what you mean by "fail". We had a branch president in Japan who would make the poor kids redo it if they got off on the cadence. They could have every word correct, but not have quite the right style of oration. It was brutal. And do you honestly believe the Lord cares if one word is out of order? What if the pronounciation is slightly off? Where do you draw the line?

The cultural standard is to get the words right. It's not much to ask. It's not a high bar.

[MikeWaters]

See the thing is, I'm not worried about the bread and the water. I'm worried about the boy.

And so are you that would not expect the boys to get it right every time.

But our worry leads us to different paths.

He will learn more by overcoming this, than just being winked at. And that is a general principle. Literacy, and public recitation are part and parcel of being able to function in life and church.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The cultural standard is to get the words right. It's not much to ask. It's not a high bar.

Sure it's easy. To you and me.

But what if they mess up slightly, but pause and correct themselves? IMO, that is fine. But I have seen bishops disallow that. No stuttering allowed either. It's crazy.

If you get to the point where young men are too scared to come to church and participate due to humiliation, I think we have gone too far.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Sure it's easy. To you and me.

But what if they mess up slightly, but pause and correct themselves? IMO, that is fine. But I have seen bishops disallow that. No stuttering allowed either. It's crazy.

If you get to the point where young men are too scared to come to church and participate due to humiliation, I think we have gone too far.

They can go back and correct, if I'm bishop.

It's not a high bar.

You don't save kids by settling for mediocrity.

[Archaea]

I'm with Mike on this one.

If you're sixteen, you should be able to read a few lines of text out loud. If you can't then practice.

If your reading skills are that deficient, you should seek extra help. I wouldn't wish to embarrass some kid, but geeze, it's not that difficult, IMHO and it shouldn't be.

We're not asking them to quote a soliloquy from Hamlet or solve an FFT.