Tithing Settlement - Page 9 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

8ballrollin · 01-31-2006, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

I concur 100% with Robin.

I don't.

I don't think he was trying to be patronizing, but it reads like it. I have already had the 'burning man' period of my life, but I rejected it for another path - active membership in the Church.

On the item of finding "evidence that completely justified my beliefs" – In religion, I don't think this will ever be found. We were not there when Moses talked to a burning bush, at the Mont of Transfiguration, the Ascension, or during the First Vision.

Alkili · 01-31-2006, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

I do it hoping that someone will respond with something that I didn't know, some piece of obscure evidence, or some completely inspired notion that inspires me to believe as I once did. It's hard to lose your faith.

Thats your problem right there, your looking in all of the wrong places. When I find something that challenges my belief I go back to something that I've had a spiritual conformation on. I used to think that once I had a change of heart everything would be easy from then on, or once I had a conformation of the Book of Mormon I wouldn't have any more doubts.

But what I have learned is that when you have a conformation you know its true, but it doesn't last, the feelings fade and all you get is the memory of it.

If you really want to re-gain your faith you need to use faith. Start reading the Book of Mormon again and ask if its true, just like any good missionary will tell you to do.

The_Tick · 01-31-2006, 05:50 PM

What strikes me funny about all of this....

It was the stuff that you all talk about that brought me back into activity into the church.

I was inactive from 13-17. My friends in school thought they would "help me out" by giving me as much anti stuff that their pastors could hand out.

So since I didn't want anything to do with the church I read that crap up and down. Figuring that it would justify all my "problems" and I could walk away cleanly....

But here is what happened....

None of it made sense. While some of the stuff they brought up was interesting. None of it made sense.

It didn't sound like the church my family belonged to...

Didn't sound like the people I knew from church....

Didn't seem that Satan himself was running it...

So guess what happened....

I went to church to find out for myself if the anti stuff was true.

It wasn't.

I ended up going on a mission, meeting my wife, having two children, and corrupting countless YM in the YM program.

I think it depends on your mental make-up. I was outside looking for justification to stay outside.

It sounds as if you/people were on the inside looking for justification to get outside.

Find me a church that doesn't have a "clouded" history like the LDS church, and I will show you a church that hasn't been researched yet.

Archaea · 01-31-2006, 06:02 PM

Only observation.

The thread burning at both ends.

It's good to have intellectual curiosity, and it's good to be pragmatic. But a wise man is patient, makes few precipitous decisions and observes before reaching life changing decisions.

Even if curious and thought out, I often shelve my intellectual questions to look for different answers.

But then again what does an old fart know. It seems to work for me though.

Iluvatar · 01-31-2006, 06:22 PM

and I'm not looking for justification to leave. I was born a mormon, and I'm quite certain I'll die a mormon (being born mormon is almost like being born white, or black...you are what you are). I'm not in a "burning man phase", though I see nothing wrong with that. I have a firm testimony of all the moral tenents of the gospel. I just think I've been corrupted, if you will, by many years of scientific training. As a scientist it's very difficult for me to believe some of the more fantastic elements of our doctrine and history. It's also hard for me to reconcile what we've been told to believe vs. what the overwhelming body of evidence would lead me to believe.

I guess it boils down to faith. There are some things that I won't/can't take on faith alone. I guess I'm a rebellious spirit, destined for hellfire and eternal damnation.

We'll see.

Alkili · 01-31-2006, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

and I'm not looking for justification to leave. I was born a mormon, and I'm quite certain I'll die a mormon (being born mormon is almost like being born white, or black...you are what you are). I'm not in a "burning man phase", though I see nothing wrong with that. I have a firm testimony of all the moral tenents of the gospel. I just think I've been corrupted, if you will, by many years of scientific training. As a scientist it's very difficult for me to believe some of the more fantastic elements of our doctrine and history. It's also hard for me to reconcile what we've been told to believe vs. what the overwhelming body of evidence would lead me to believe.

I guess it boils down to faith. There are some things that I won't/can't take on faith alone. I guess I'm a rebellious spirit, destined for hellfire and eternal damnation.

We'll see.

That must be why Christ kept saying "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear".

8ballrollin · 01-31-2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

As a scientist it's very difficult for me to believe some of the more fantastic elements of our doctrine and history

Don't you find this to be the case with religion, in general? To me that will always be the conundrum with religion. It has to be based on faith, to me.

I'm not judging anyone and where they are in their lives at all, I only posted my comment on my experiences above to mention that people arrive at religious beliefs from different directions.

fusnik11 · 01-31-2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

I just think I've been corrupted, if you will, by many years of scientific training. As a scientist it's very difficult for me to believe some of the more fantastic elements of our doctrine and history. It's also hard for me to reconcile what we've been told to believe vs. what the overwhelming body of evidence would lead me to believe.

what part of your scientific training has led you away from the church?

and please tell me what are these 'fantastic elements of our doctrine nad history' that does not allow you to maintain your scientific integrity, and 'spiritual membership' in the lds faith?

Iluvatar · 01-31-2006, 07:24 PM

8ball,

I DO find that to be the case with most (really all) religions. And I guess that's where I might be completely errant. I look for tangible evidence to justify my faith, while perhaps that's not the point at all. Faith may be the end, and not just the means. Interesting thought.

Fusnik,

Are you sure you want to go down that road?

I'm starting to feel a little guilty about posting certain things here. I don't think I should have posted the bits about Polyandry, or the Book of Abraham. I guess I feel a little remorse for dragging some of you guys into my crisis of faith.

I want to be a more respected member of this forum, as I think I could learn a great deal from the lot of you. I don't think I'd earn much respect here by launching headlong into some of the murkier areas of church history and doctrine, again.

Just a thought.

Goatnapper'96 · 02-01-2006, 07:13 AM

I saw him quoting Robin and I was expecting him to voice in as the third witness to establish truth that we are all on the same slippery slope that took the triumvirate of board apostates to their demise...but alas I am the pompous ass. Seattle points out the disgusting ethnocentricity and arrogance of Sir Robin. I usually like Robin, but that advice was, in the word that brought Robin and I together, gay.

I apologize to Seattle and admit that for once I am the dickhead.

I must ask, why am I not bothered by the deeper issues that bother others, or more specifically why can Bushman and Brodie evaluate the same research material and come to such different conclusions? It is faith and I don't think Robin's and mine, or anybody else's, are the same and it should be embarassing to a Burning Man addict to superimpose his pathetic and unique experiences upon my pathetically unique experiences. Methinks that there are many who know even more than the great Finderson about LDS history, and yet many of them don't lose the testimony and find the liberation that Robin speaks of so highly.

With that I will leave you brethren with one eternal truth..bank on this one fellas: BOOBS ARE IN!

01-31-2006, 05:50 PM	#83
The_Tick Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 626	What strikes me funny about all of this.... It was the stuff that you all talk about that brought me back into activity into the church. I was inactive from 13-17. My friends in school thought they would "help me out" by giving me as much anti stuff that their pastors could hand out. So since I didn't want anything to do with the church I read that crap up and down. Figuring that it would justify all my "problems" and I could walk away cleanly.... But here is what happened.... None of it made sense. While some of the stuff they brought up was interesting. None of it made sense. It didn't sound like the church my family belonged to... Didn't sound like the people I knew from church.... Didn't seem that Satan himself was running it... So guess what happened.... I went to church to find out for myself if the anti stuff was true. It wasn't. I ended up going on a mission, meeting my wife, having two children, and corrupting countless YM in the YM program. I think it depends on your mental make-up. I was outside looking for justification to stay outside. It sounds as if you/people were on the inside looking for justification to get outside. Find me a church that doesn't have a "clouded" history like the LDS church, and I will show you a church that hasn't been researched yet. __________________ Spooooooon

01-31-2006, 06:02 PM	#84
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	Only observation. The thread burning at both ends. It's good to have intellectual curiosity, and it's good to be pragmatic. But a wise man is patient, makes few precipitous decisions and observes before reaching life changing decisions. Even if curious and thought out, I often shelve my intellectual questions to look for different answers. But then again what does an old fart know. It seems to work for me though. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

01-31-2006, 06:22 PM	#85
Iluvatar Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 52	I'm still on the inside... and I'm not looking for justification to leave. I was born a mormon, and I'm quite certain I'll die a mormon (being born mormon is almost like being born white, or black...you are what you are). I'm not in a "burning man phase", though I see nothing wrong with that. I have a firm testimony of all the moral tenents of the gospel. I just think I've been corrupted, if you will, by many years of scientific training. As a scientist it's very difficult for me to believe some of the more fantastic elements of our doctrine and history. It's also hard for me to reconcile what we've been told to believe vs. what the overwhelming body of evidence would lead me to believe. I guess it boils down to faith. There are some things that I won't/can't take on faith alone. I guess I'm a rebellious spirit, destined for hellfire and eternal damnation. We'll see. __________________ \"What we do in life echoes in eternity\"

01-31-2006, 07:24 PM	#89
Iluvatar Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 52	Hmmm... 8ball, I DO find that to be the case with most (really all) religions. And I guess that's where I might be completely errant. I look for tangible evidence to justify my faith, while perhaps that's not the point at all. Faith may be the end, and not just the means. Interesting thought. Fusnik, Are you sure you want to go down that road? I'm starting to feel a little guilty about posting certain things here. I don't think I should have posted the bits about Polyandry, or the Book of Abraham. I guess I feel a little remorse for dragging some of you guys into my crisis of faith. I want to be a more respected member of this forum, as I think I could learn a great deal from the lot of you. I don't think I'd earn much respect here by launching headlong into some of the murkier areas of church history and doctrine, again. Just a thought. __________________ \"What we do in life echoes in eternity\"

02-01-2006, 07:13 AM	#90
Goatnapper'96 Recruiting Coordinator/Bosom Inspector Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,412	Kudos to SeattleUte.. I saw him quoting Robin and I was expecting him to voice in as the third witness to establish truth that we are all on the same slippery slope that took the triumvirate of board apostates to their demise...but alas I am the pompous ass. Seattle points out the disgusting ethnocentricity and arrogance of Sir Robin. I usually like Robin, but that advice was, in the word that brought Robin and I together, gay. I apologize to Seattle and admit that for once I am the dickhead. I must ask, why am I not bothered by the deeper issues that bother others, or more specifically why can Bushman and Brodie evaluate the same research material and come to such different conclusions? It is faith and I don't think Robin's and mine, or anybody else's, are the same and it should be embarassing to a Burning Man addict to superimpose his pathetic and unique experiences upon my pathetically unique experiences. Methinks that there are many who know even more than the great Finderson about LDS history, and yet many of them don't lose the testimony and find the liberation that Robin speaks of so highly. With that I will leave you brethren with one eternal truth..bank on this one fellas: BOOBS ARE IN! __________________ She had a psychiatrist who said because I didn't trust the water system, the school system, the government, I was paranoid," he said. "I had a psychiatrist who said her psychiatrist was stupid."