04-11-2007, 06:56 PM | #11 |
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So your personal definition of "alternate voices" is accurately represented by Elder Oaks' talk?
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04-11-2007, 07:08 PM | #12 | |
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Elder Oaks and the view of Professor Mauss are valuable to me. It seems like a reasonable standard. Apparently you find some of us ridiculous for trying a different path.
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04-11-2007, 07:13 PM | #13 | |
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Even after being smacked around by SEIQ in this thread several times, I've tried to respond with level-headedness. I just wanted to understand what an "alternate voice" was, because the term in and of itself is extremely vague. The eventual linkage of Elder Oaks talk was appreciated and I at least have a better understanding now of what an "alternate voice" is than I did an hour ago. I don't intend to take any more of this thread's space. I got the answer I was looking for and will watch from the rafters from this point forward. Last edited by Indy Coug; 04-11-2007 at 07:19 PM. |
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04-11-2007, 07:22 PM | #14 | |
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04-11-2007, 08:18 PM | #15 | |
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04-11-2007, 08:22 PM | #16 |
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An interesting part of the Mauss talk:
"To begin with, an historical perspective seems helpful. We have always had “alternate voices” in the Church. I am not referring to apostates (nor was Elder Oaks, I believe) but to certain loyal and thoughtful saints of independent mind who would occasionally question conventional doctrine or policy–and do so publicly. Before about 1940, such public discussions frequently took place in official Church magazines and even among the general authorities themselves. For evidence of this contention, one has only to consult early issues of the Improvement Era, Contributor, and Juvenile Instructor, or to review the careers of figures like B.H. Roberts. Even the LDS Institute program once provided a forum for discussion and sometimes honest disagreement among the devout and intellectually cultivated scholars so often found in the ranks of the Institute faculty in those early days. In many ways, the Church was like one big family during its first century or so. This was especially true of the general authorities, who constituted a rather small circle of relatives and boyhood friends. Their families shared impeccable pioneer credentials and intimate knowledge of each other. When Orson Pratt disagreed publicly with Brigham Young about doctrine, they had been through too much together for Brother Brigham, even as president, to question basic loyalty and commitment of Brother Orson. When B.H. Roberts and the young Joseph Fielding Smith disagreed publicly about evolution, neither risked suspicions of heresy, apostasy, or disloyalty to the Brethren. When Heber J. Grant as president of the Church disagreed publicly with Apostle Reed Smoot over the League of Nations, it probably never occurred to President Grant to question Elder Smoot’s loyalty after their shared travail in 1903. Even when J. Golden Kimball regularly embarrassed some of his colleagues, they knew, after all, that he was “Hber’s boy.” His rock-solid Mormon heritage was more important than his idiosyncrasies in assessing his reliability. It is a different church today for reasons that are quite understandable. As in any organization, rapid growth and complexity have brought increasing reliance on centralization and standardization (now called “correlation”). Some of the general authorities might still be related to each other, but not nearly so many and certainly not so closely. Recruitment to their ranks comes increasingly from outside the founding families and even from outside North America. Some of the recruits to general authority rank have come up through the Church civil service bureaucracy (especially the Church Education System, C.E.S.) where they have had opportunities to demonstrate their loyalty, but not by questioning “the Brethren,” to be sure."
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04-11-2007, 08:24 PM | #17 |
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04-11-2007, 08:33 PM | #18 |
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A really great link SIEQ. It reminds me of some antecdotes that I have heard from persons from minority groups that say "We have to be twice as good and work twice as hard as the next guy, because we start out under a cloud of suspicion." I read this as a call to arms and to rigor instead of easy criticism. Very compelling.
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04-11-2007, 08:37 PM | #19 |
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Me too. It is just easy to see how the gun got jumped.
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04-11-2007, 09:00 PM | #20 |
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LOL...Indy asks an honest and legitimate question.
Yeah, it's just us "mullahs" that cause contention isn't it? SEIQ...time to swallow your pride and apologize to Indy.
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