Talk about grandstanding and overreaction

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by Adam

Ezra Taft Benson. They guy was a great prophet but a complete wacko politically. The damage he has done is vast and deep. It will take a generation or two to undo.

Interesting point. I don't have the personal or family history in the church to really know what went on since I joined the church in 1985. I just find the paradox interesting.

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by Adam

You know that ETB believed that Eisenhower, while President of the US, became a knowing and willing spy for the Soviets, right? I could go on. ETB lost his mind politically. I mean that literally. His son, the BYU prof, wrote all his talks when he was Prophet and did a great job. I am grateful for his talks as President.

Fine, but what does any of that have to do with FMCoug's post about how LDS "obey the law of the land" and are "pro-government"?

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by Adam

I suggest you read the DOM bio by Prince. There was a battle going on in the church between ETB and HBB. ETB lived longer and had more influence and won. The current political make-up of the Chruch is the result--including the fanaticism for right-wing big-government authoritarianism ("obey the law" and "pro-government").

So essentially Joseph Smith's "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law," was ignored for decades?

[exUte]

Originally Posted by hyrum

Don't confuse prosecution with persecution. Joseph Smith was raping teens at the rate of one per week during May, 1843, including a child who was in his home as essentially foster child.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/24...iaLawrence.htm
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26...MarKimball.htm

with credible, historical evidence.

Take you white trash somewhere else.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

I've always found it interesting (and a bit of a paradox) how strongly law and order members of the church seem to be today, considering our history. If ever there was a people whose relatively recent history screams the benefits of libertarianism, it is Mormons. How did we become so pro-government / law of the land in just a few generations?

Mauss examines this in the Angel and the Beehive. It has to do with LDS seeking assimilation instead of exclusion.

Part of this paradox is the modern LDS loyalty to the Republican Party - a party founded to root out "the twin relics of barbarism" - slavery and polygamy. Utah was pro-Confederacy during the Civil War and the most "democratic" (i.e. loyal to the democratic party) state in the union until the early 20th century.

The swing to the right peaked with ETB and his John Birch Society shtick.

[exUte]

Originally Posted by Solon

Mauss examines this in the Angel and the Beehive. It has to do with LDS seeking assimilation instead of exclusion.

Part of this paradox is the modern LDS loyalty to the Republican Party - a party founded to root out "the twin relics of barbarism" - slavery and polygamy. Utah was pro-Confederacy during the Civil War and the most "democratic" (i.e. loyal to the democratic party) state in the union until the early 20th century.

The swing to the right peaked with ETB and his John Birch Society shtick.

can be attributed to self sufficiency (rather than relying on the government), opposition to abortion, permiscuity (sp?), opposition to 'free love' of the 60's and 70's, etc. Basically most of the teachings of the Church. Unless you consider government handouts part of the church welfare system.

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

So essentially Joseph Smith's "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law," was ignored for decades?

You really are a twit aren't you? When did I say we shouldn't obey the law of the land? What I mentioned was principles of libertarianism which I think the saints of the 1800's would have been very much for. I'm not talking about just obeying the law of the land, I'm referring to the fact that there is SO MUCH government intervention in our lives and yet we seem to be okay with that. It just seems an odd position given the history.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by exUte

can be attributed to self sufficiency (rather than relying on the government), opposition to abortion, permiscuity (sp?), opposition to 'free love' of the 60's and 70's, etc. Basically most of the teachings of the Church. Unless you consider government handouts part of the church welfare system.

I'm not a political scientist, so these are just my opinions, but it seems to me that these examples are a bit later than the swing to the right. I've always understood it to have begun in the 1910s and 20s as a means of reintegrating back into American society.

By the 1930s, the LDS church was vehemently opposed to taking part in New Deal programs (making Utahns much poorer than they had to be).

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by Solon

I'm not a political scientist, so these are just my opinions, but it seems to me that these examples are a bit later than the swing to the right. I've always understood it to have begun in the 1910s and 20s as a means of reintegrating back into American society.

By the 1930s, the LDS church was vehemently opposed to taking part in New Deal programs (making Utahns much poorer than they had to be).

I would also say those are very much libertarian principles. I am talking about the more authoritarian principles of the right.