Eugene England's parting words (BYU, UoU, UVSC) - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 08-20-2005, 05:34 PM

Great article/speech. I am familiar somewhat with the lack of academic freedom at BYU, which I despise.

The surprise to me, was this gigantic slam of the University of Utah: "[no] practicing Mormon in fifty years been hired in English, or in philosophy in the last forty or in history for twenty-five years."

That is incredible. I've heard of anti-Mormonism at UofU, but I didn't know it was this bad. Now I am beginning to understand why a faithful LDS person who goes to BYU, grew up in Utah, might not like the gang up North.

Anyway, the article argues that UVSC is the only place in Utah that is in the proper center, exercising freedom, examining Mormonism, etc.

This speech was given in 2000. He died in 2001.

Those that know me best know that I have a love/hate relationship with BYU. The hate part comes from the same aspect of me that led to me forming this board. I don't like people telling me how to think. <sigh>.

I'm just glad I'm not in the middle of it. I'll never work for BYU and I'll never work for UoU.

http://www.uvsc.edu/ethics/conftrans...ee-england.pdf

SoCalCoug · 08-20-2005, 06:39 PM

Orson Scott Card has applied in the past to join the English Department at BYU, but he has, according to his version of the story, been stymied, primarily because of one of his earlier novels, Saints (formerly A Woman of Destiny) which dealt in part with Joseph Smith and polygamy - it's a much rawer version of Joseph Smith and Nauvoo than is portrayed in mainstream LDS history. (I did some research for a paper on Joseph Smith at BYU, and I found that there appears to be a lot of truth to the way Joseph Smith was portrayed in Saints.)

In any case, OSC's story is that the bretheren are not pleased with the novel, and as a result will not allow him to join the faculty at BYU.

I don't know BYU's version of the story.

Jeff Lebowski · 08-20-2005, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalCoug

Orson Scott Card has applied in the past to join the English Department at BYU, but he has, according to his version of the story, been stymied, primarily because of one of his earlier novels, Saints (formerly A Woman of Destiny) which dealt in part with Joseph Smith and polygamy - it's a much rawer version of Joseph Smith and Nauvoo than is portrayed in mainstream LDS history. (I did some research for a paper on Joseph Smith at BYU, and I found that there appears to be a lot of truth to the way Joseph Smith was portrayed in Saints.)

In any case, OSC's story is that the bretheren are not pleased with the novel, and as a result will not allow him to join the faculty at BYU.

I don't know BYU's version of the story.

That's always tough to call. Could be a case of sour grapes. I have been involved in the hiring process numerous times and have been surprised at how some folks handle it when they don't get picked.

MikeWaters · 08-21-2005, 02:55 AM

I wonder what the Utes here think of the above stats from Mr./Dr./Br. England.

InTheMuss · 08-21-2005, 03:38 AM

I'm not too concerned about the stats. The applicant pool for the U of U is going to include people from across the nation. I wouldn't want them to confine their search by religion or try to hire anyone just so that they match some arbitrary demographic of the state.

I don't think it has anything to do with anti-mormonism... I think the U just has a nation-wide applicant pool. I know you cougars don't like to hear it but the U is a research institution and that happens to attract the best people in every field.

MikeWaters · 08-21-2005, 03:58 AM

so you are saying there is no anti-Mormon bias in hiring at the U?

The article is arguing that it HURTS to be Mormon.

InTheMuss · 08-21-2005, 04:34 AM

I'm not sure how he can quantify that it helps or hurts... I haven't read the article but the absence of LDS professors doesn't prove a bias against them.

I'm an LDS student at the U and I haven't had any backlash against me because of my religious beliefs.

Also I have had a couple of LDS professors... so it's not like the U is purging itself of any LDS influence. IE) Young as President... Eyring teaching in the Chem Dept.. Ingebretsen in the Physics dept. I don't ask my professors what church they go to though, so there are probably more. I only know the ones I listed because they mentioned something that tipped me off.

Also Mike... I'd like to see his stats to prove that none of those professors are active LDS because I did have a freshman english lit professor in 99 who I know is LDS and I know she is active. She still teaches at the U as well... Dr. Carolan Ownby. I believe she heads up a program now called LEAP which is basically a program to complete all your gen eds in the least amount of time possible. She still teaches English lit though.

Frankly I don't understand why their religion would make any difference in their instruction anyways.

Brian · 08-21-2005, 04:36 AM

He seems to only mention anecdotal evidence. I don't think there is a way to determine how many mormons apply for positions.
It doesn't surprise me that mormon faculty has declined from 80% to 10% over 40 years, the U brings in enormous amounts of research money, and as Muss points out, that brings in capable people from all over the world to compete for positions.

Having lived in and out of Utah, the dominant culture really is suffocating. I will certainly never live there again, the group-think is just too much. I can certainly understand the need of some to push back, and if a person can't deal with that, they are certainly not prepared for life in the real world.
An issue for sure, but overhyped I think.

Regards,
Brian

MikeWaters · 08-21-2005, 04:54 AM

My experience is in medicine. and the anecdotal evidence is very strong that the U is not interested in Mormon BYU grads.

I find all this talk about the U being a wordclass institution very fascinating. But then again, I grew up around Texas A&M. And certainly the U is podunk compared to A&M.

MikeWaters · 08-21-2005, 05:05 AM

http://thecenter.ufl.edu/research2002.pdf
p37 A&M
p39 UoU

(just in case I get challenged).

I would like to see how the UoU hires. I'm sure that open records would allow one to do some analyses (ala Freakonomics) and determine if their is systematic bigotry...

Maybe that will be a future project.

08-20-2005, 05:34 PM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Eugene England's parting words (BYU, UoU, UVSC) Great article/speech. I am familiar somewhat with the lack of academic freedom at BYU, which I despise. The surprise to me, was this gigantic slam of the University of Utah: "[no] practicing Mormon in fifty years been hired in English, or in philosophy in the last forty or in history for twenty-five years." That is incredible. I've heard of anti-Mormonism at UofU, but I didn't know it was this bad. Now I am beginning to understand why a faithful LDS person who goes to BYU, grew up in Utah, might not like the gang up North. Anyway, the article argues that UVSC is the only place in Utah that is in the proper center, exercising freedom, examining Mormonism, etc. This speech was given in 2000. He died in 2001. Those that know me best know that I have a love/hate relationship with BYU. The hate part comes from the same aspect of me that led to me forming this board. I don't like people telling me how to think. <sigh>. I'm just glad I'm not in the middle of it. I'll never work for BYU and I'll never work for UoU. http://www.uvsc.edu/ethics/conftrans...ee-england.pdf

08-20-2005, 06:39 PM	#2
SoCalCoug Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orange County, California Posts: 3,059	Orson Scott Card has applied in the past to join the English Department at BYU, but he has, according to his version of the story, been stymied, primarily because of one of his earlier novels, Saints (formerly A Woman of Destiny) which dealt in part with Joseph Smith and polygamy - it's a much rawer version of Joseph Smith and Nauvoo than is portrayed in mainstream LDS history. (I did some research for a paper on Joseph Smith at BYU, and I found that there appears to be a lot of truth to the way Joseph Smith was portrayed in Saints.) In any case, OSC's story is that the bretheren are not pleased with the novel, and as a result will not allow him to join the faculty at BYU. I don't know BYU's version of the story. __________________ Get your stinking paws off me, you damned, dirty Yewt! "Now perhaps as I spanked myself screaming out "Kozlowski, say it like you mean it bitch!" might have been out of line, but such was the mood." - Goatnapper "If you want to fatten a pig up to make the pig MORE delicious, you can feed it almost anything. Seriously. The pig is like the car on Back to the Future. You put in garbage, and out comes something magical!" - Cali Coug

08-21-2005, 02:55 AM	#4
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I wonder what the Utes here think of the above stats from Mr./Dr./Br. England.

08-21-2005, 03:38 AM	#5
InTheMuss Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 13	I'm not too concerned about the stats. The applicant pool for the U of U is going to include people from across the nation. I wouldn't want them to confine their search by religion or try to hire anyone just so that they match some arbitrary demographic of the state. I don't think it has anything to do with anti-mormonism... I think the U just has a nation-wide applicant pool. I know you cougars don't like to hear it but the U is a research institution and that happens to attract the best people in every field.

08-21-2005, 03:58 AM	#6
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	so you are saying there is no anti-Mormon bias in hiring at the U? The article is arguing that it HURTS to be Mormon.

08-21-2005, 04:34 AM	#7
InTheMuss Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 13	I'm not sure how he can quantify that it helps or hurts... I haven't read the article but the absence of LDS professors doesn't prove a bias against them. I'm an LDS student at the U and I haven't had any backlash against me because of my religious beliefs. Also I have had a couple of LDS professors... so it's not like the U is purging itself of any LDS influence. IE) Young as President... Eyring teaching in the Chem Dept.. Ingebretsen in the Physics dept. I don't ask my professors what church they go to though, so there are probably more. I only know the ones I listed because they mentioned something that tipped me off. Also Mike... I'd like to see his stats to prove that none of those professors are active LDS because I did have a freshman english lit professor in 99 who I know is LDS and I know she is active. She still teaches at the U as well... Dr. Carolan Ownby. I believe she heads up a program now called LEAP which is basically a program to complete all your gen eds in the least amount of time possible. She still teaches English lit though. Frankly I don't understand why their religion would make any difference in their instruction anyways.

08-21-2005, 04:36 AM	#8
Brian Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oak Ridge, TN Posts: 1,308	He seems to only mention anecdotal evidence. I don't think there is a way to determine how many mormons apply for positions. It doesn't surprise me that mormon faculty has declined from 80% to 10% over 40 years, the U brings in enormous amounts of research money, and as Muss points out, that brings in capable people from all over the world to compete for positions. Having lived in and out of Utah, the dominant culture really is suffocating. I will certainly never live there again, the group-think is just too much. I can certainly understand the need of some to push back, and if a person can't deal with that, they are certainly not prepared for life in the real world. An issue for sure, but overhyped I think. Regards, Brian

08-21-2005, 04:54 AM	#9
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	My experience is in medicine. and the anecdotal evidence is very strong that the U is not interested in Mormon BYU grads. I find all this talk about the U being a wordclass institution very fascinating. But then again, I grew up around Texas A&M. And certainly the U is podunk compared to A&M.

08-21-2005, 05:05 AM	#10
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	http://thecenter.ufl.edu/research2002.pdf p37 A&M p39 UoU (just in case I get challenged). I would like to see how the UoU hires. I'm sure that open records would allow one to do some analyses (ala Freakonomics) and determine if their is systematic bigotry... Maybe that will be a future project.