Re: the 1/3 who were cast out of heaven - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

SteelBlue · 09-23-2005, 07:24 PM

The more I think about "The War in Heaven" the more I realize that we just don't know very much about what happened there. Or at least I don't. Some questions come to my mind whenever I have thought about the subject, and I've never really found any great answers. I'd be curious to see what some of the minds on this board think. So here goes:

1) Why did so many people seem to think that going with Lucifer and his plan was the right way to go? Apparently it was not totally obvious to them that they could/would lose this "battle". I'm amazed to think that so many souls felt that this was the thing that they needed to do.

2) Do you think it was an aversion to risk that led them to go with Satan's plan? Was it because he promised them power? Did these people truly feel what they were doing was right?

3) Do you think these souls currently believe that they HAVE lost or certainly WILL lose the "war". In other words, beyond screwing up the lives of as many people as they can here on earth, do they think they still have a shot to come out on top when all is said and done?

My current personal opinions:

1 and 2) I think there may have been some who were intrigued by the automatic/forced soul saving idea. Perhaps they found it less risky (which would be pretty ironic). However, I think that more likely it was that they felt that they were losing a stake in something (as Lucifer seems to have felt). In other words, perhaps they felt that they were giving up power?

3) I think they must know that they have lost the war. But the motivation to simply "screw things up" for the rest of us seems too simple. I think there's something more that perhaps we don't know about yet. Something that they think they can accomplish?

I'd love to hear the thoughts of the cougarguard braintrust.

MikeWaters · 09-23-2005, 07:31 PM

I think we generally end up where we are most comfortable.

For some, God's plan is hell. And for others, Satan's plan is hell.

Among Mormons, for some the Celestial Kingdom would be unpleasant. (who can be bothered with all the paperwork?).

Dan · 09-23-2005, 08:00 PM

... it isn't necessarily "1/3" that was cast out of heaven, rather a "third part". A third part can be 1/3, but it can be something else. There is significant symbolic meaning with the "third part" also. A "third part" represents a limited amount. This is really brought out in Revelation where you will notice a third part is often mentioned, in the context of destruction and/or satanic power. The symbolic gist is the limitation of influence, power, death, etc. of satan and his minions. But it doesn't necessarily have to attached to satan.

SteelBlue · 09-23-2005, 08:09 PM

So, do you think it was something significantly different than an actual 1/3 then?

UtahDan · 09-23-2005, 08:36 PM

I was under the impression that the CK will be endless correlation meetings.

I agree with the overall take that there is much more going on here than we are aware of or comprehend. I can't buy into the irrationality of that many souls regardless of whether ultimately they were proved wrong.

One thing that does leap out at me though as we discuss it is the incredible power of the principle of free agency. It is VERY hard to imagine being in the presense of God and making choices that are contrary to His will, and yet a third did exactly that. This leads me to think that it is not as hard to do this as we might imagine.

I'm of the thought that (as we are taught) the glory of God is so intense and indescribable that we cannot endure it in mortality BUT I also think that this doesn't necessarily mean being in His pressence overwhelms our ability to choose or even our desire to do evil. Interesting to me that this should be so. It also tells me that the desire to do evil, or that contrary to the will of God, arises not only from Satan attempting to entice such behavior. If the natural man is an enemy to God, then I think it must be true that part of what we resist when we resist "temptation" is something in our nature which is not to say that we are naturally inclined toward evil at all times, but that part of us inclines that direction and part of this life is learning to overcome that part of ourselves.

Is that sufficiently muddy?

ute4ever · 09-23-2005, 08:45 PM

Concerning #1:

It may have had a lot to do with contentment. We see that on the earth today: people are fine with the way things are.

In the WIH, Christ's plan involved pain, learning, sorrow, stretching one self; Lucy's had to look more appealing, what with his notion that no souls would be lost. I think many people were content with the way things were, didn't care to go through all the trials, didn't have faith in the unknown (the blessings of the future kingdoms) to motivate them.

09-23-2005, 08:00 PM	#3
Dan Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Elk Grove, California Posts: 211	Actually ... ... it isn't necessarily "1/3" that was cast out of heaven, rather a "third part". A third part can be 1/3, but it can be something else. There is significant symbolic meaning with the "third part" also. A "third part" represents a limited amount. This is really brought out in Revelation where you will notice a third part is often mentioned, in the context of destruction and/or satanic power. The symbolic gist is the limitation of influence, power, death, etc. of satan and his minions. But it doesn't necessarily have to attached to satan. __________________ Dan Temet Nosce - \"Know Thyself\"

09-23-2005, 08:36 PM	#5
UtahDan Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Bluth Home Posts: 3,877	Paper work? I was under the impression that the CK will be endless correlation meetings. I agree with the overall take that there is much more going on here than we are aware of or comprehend. I can't buy into the irrationality of that many souls regardless of whether ultimately they were proved wrong. One thing that does leap out at me though as we discuss it is the incredible power of the principle of free agency. It is VERY hard to imagine being in the presense of God and making choices that are contrary to His will, and yet a third did exactly that. This leads me to think that it is not as hard to do this as we might imagine. I'm of the thought that (as we are taught) the glory of God is so intense and indescribable that we cannot endure it in mortality BUT I also think that this doesn't necessarily mean being in His pressence overwhelms our ability to choose or even our desire to do evil. Interesting to me that this should be so. It also tells me that the desire to do evil, or that contrary to the will of God, arises not only from Satan attempting to entice such behavior. If the natural man is an enemy to God, then I think it must be true that part of what we resist when we resist "temptation" is something in our nature which is not to say that we are naturally inclined toward evil at all times, but that part of us inclines that direction and part of this life is learning to overcome that part of ourselves. Is that sufficiently muddy? __________________ The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. -Galileo

09-23-2005, 07:24 PM	#1
SteelBlue Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Norcal Posts: 5,821	Re: the 1/3 who were cast out of heaven The more I think about "The War in Heaven" the more I realize that we just don't know very much about what happened there. Or at least I don't. Some questions come to my mind whenever I have thought about the subject, and I've never really found any great answers. I'd be curious to see what some of the minds on this board think. So here goes: 1) Why did so many people seem to think that going with Lucifer and his plan was the right way to go? Apparently it was not totally obvious to them that they could/would lose this "battle". I'm amazed to think that so many souls felt that this was the thing that they needed to do. 2) Do you think it was an aversion to risk that led them to go with Satan's plan? Was it because he promised them power? Did these people truly feel what they were doing was right? 3) Do you think these souls currently believe that they HAVE lost or certainly WILL lose the "war". In other words, beyond screwing up the lives of as many people as they can here on earth, do they think they still have a shot to come out on top when all is said and done? My current personal opinions: 1 and 2) I think there may have been some who were intrigued by the automatic/forced soul saving idea. Perhaps they found it less risky (which would be pretty ironic). However, I think that more likely it was that they felt that they were losing a stake in something (as Lucifer seems to have felt). In other words, perhaps they felt that they were giving up power? 3) I think they must know that they have lost the war. But the motivation to simply "screw things up" for the rest of us seems too simple. I think there's something more that perhaps we don't know about yet. Something that they think they can accomplish? I'd love to hear the thoughts of the cougarguard braintrust.

09-23-2005, 07:31 PM	#2
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I think we generally end up where we are most comfortable. For some, God's plan is hell. And for others, Satan's plan is hell. Among Mormons, for some the Celestial Kingdom would be unpleasant. (who can be bothered with all the paperwork?).

09-23-2005, 08:09 PM	#4
SteelBlue Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Norcal Posts: 5,821	So, do you think it was something significantly different than an actual 1/3 then?

09-23-2005, 08:45 PM	#6
ute4ever I must not tell lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,103	Concerning #1: It may have had a lot to do with contentment. We see that on the earth today: people are fine with the way things are. In the WIH, Christ's plan involved pain, learning, sorrow, stretching one self; Lucy's had to look more appealing, what with his notion that no souls would be lost. I think many people were content with the way things were, didn't care to go through all the trials, didn't have faith in the unknown (the blessings of the future kingdoms) to motivate them.