John Dehlin headed towards a Disciplinary Council - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 01-15-2015, 09:30 PM

and likely excommunication. I"m not sure how useful this is. Even though I am no big fan of Dehlin.

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/a/a/e/aaed...9ec3bc132101a4

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/us...773522000&_r=0

MikeWaters · 01-15-2015, 10:00 PM

good point made in the comments.

our tolerance is demonstrated by the fact we are not beheading him.

ChinoCoug · 01-15-2015, 10:36 PM

This is useful for the following reason:

He has turned up the anti-Mormon rhetoric full blast. Some of his donors would only remain donors if he were a member. This would cut off a lot of the funding for what he does.

ChinoCoug · 01-15-2015, 10:38 PM

He'll have to rely on the exmo world, I think, because "transitioning" Mormons aren't big enough of a pool to fund his endeavor.

I don't think he's in it for the money, because he could be making more elsewhere. But if he wants to be a rock star doing this Mormon thing, he needs funding.

MikeWaters · 01-16-2015, 04:05 AM

He does seem to like being on the NYT rolodex.

Archaea · 01-18-2015, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

He does seem to like being on the NYT rolodex.

He podcasts about religion. How boring is that?

The only people I see mentioning him are Mormons.

MikeWaters · 01-18-2015, 05:55 PM

I'm sure most USA Mormons have never heard of him.

ChinoCoug · 01-21-2015, 01:44 PM

Nathan Givens (Terryl Givens' son) chimes in.

http://difficultrun.nathanielgivens....ch-discipline/

Apparently, Dehlin concealed a letter from the Stake President stating that SSM/OW were not reasons for the discipline, and didn't release it until the media ran off with the narrative.

Dehlin responded, but did not address withholding the letter.

http://mormonstories.org/reasons-for...inary-council/

MikeWaters · 01-21-2015, 07:00 PM

I many cases I think you make up your mind about the character of the person, make a decision, and then gather the facts to justify the decision. That's not a comment about disciplinary courts, that's a comment about human nature.

That's why thousands of Mormons can support OW and gay marriage, yet are not excommunicated, nor disciplined at all, even when they do so semi-publicly.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. OW and gay marriage have likely played a prominent role, but not to the degree that the media is saying, and Dehlin I think likes to play up that angle, because it is the most sympathetic.

I don't know Dehlin's work well. I've known of him a long time, but never dived into his stuff. maybe listened to one podcast. Whether fair or not, I've found him irritating.

I founded this website in response to the owner of cougarboard.com not allowing free conversations on religious topics. His board, his call. So I started this board. With Archaea at my side. Archaea did most of the promoting and I did all the technical stuff. And for a time this was a place of conversation on a number of interesting and difficult topics. Probably not unlike what Dehlin was dealing with.

At no point did I attempt to enrich or aggrandize my station. I feel like at most I was an invisible hand, and I let the site grow organically and democratically. Eventually I found myself with a beast that was somewhat intemperate and ill-mannered, and I made a decision that I needed to exercise greater control (this was after I had suspended myself from posting on this website). This was not well-received (and probably not well-executed on my part), and boom, the exodus started. And I'm fine with that. My work was done. I no longer had a role, nor did I want a role.

But through that experience, I think I can relate to some things that Dehlin must have experienced. You get caught up in minutiae and little things seem like big things. It doesn't take much to transition from well-meaning helpful person, to savior and hero, and finally to martyr. Dehlin occupies roles in different worlds, he sits on piles of bones and can't forget a one. He sees himself as central, historical, part of a movement. Perhaps even the leader of a movement, or the inspiration for it. Instead of just owning a little website that discusses issues, he feels like he has become a national figure. And perhaps in a way he has. Surely this is no accident, he tells himself. Destiny requires this.

I don't know how self-aware Dehlin is. I suspect he has become quite myopic, living in Utah, with all his friends and connections, battle lines drawn. It's like he is incapable of taking a step back and seeing what it all is. Or perhaps he doesn't care to.

Being the leader of anything is quite overrated. And being the leader of something and being almost uniformly rejected is not a lot of fun either. Walking away ain't easy. The church is asking Dehlin to walk away from the empire in his mind. He is not going to. At least not now.

MikeWaters · 01-22-2015, 12:25 AM

from time to time since this controversy started, I have browsed Dehlin's facebook page.

I have 4 friends who are friends with Dehlin. One has had her records removed from the church. Another has left the church, not sure if she is still on the rolls officially or not. A third I have been told has decided to not attend anymore, don't know anymore details. And the fourth, I have no idea on his status.

My impression is that he very much more favored by ex-Mormons than he is believing/practicing Mormons.

01-15-2015, 09:30 PM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	John Dehlin headed towards a Disciplinary Council and likely excommunication. I"m not sure how useful this is. Even though I am no big fan of Dehlin. http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/a/a/e/aaed...9ec3bc132101a4 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/us...773522000&_r=0

01-21-2015, 07:00 PM	#9
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I many cases I think you make up your mind about the character of the person, make a decision, and then gather the facts to justify the decision. That's not a comment about disciplinary courts, that's a comment about human nature. That's why thousands of Mormons can support OW and gay marriage, yet are not excommunicated, nor disciplined at all, even when they do so semi-publicly. The truth is somewhere in the middle. OW and gay marriage have likely played a prominent role, but not to the degree that the media is saying, and Dehlin I think likes to play up that angle, because it is the most sympathetic. I don't know Dehlin's work well. I've known of him a long time, but never dived into his stuff. maybe listened to one podcast. Whether fair or not, I've found him irritating. I founded this website in response to the owner of cougarboard.com not allowing free conversations on religious topics. His board, his call. So I started this board. With Archaea at my side. Archaea did most of the promoting and I did all the technical stuff. And for a time this was a place of conversation on a number of interesting and difficult topics. Probably not unlike what Dehlin was dealing with. At no point did I attempt to enrich or aggrandize my station. I feel like at most I was an invisible hand, and I let the site grow organically and democratically. Eventually I found myself with a beast that was somewhat intemperate and ill-mannered, and I made a decision that I needed to exercise greater control (this was after I had suspended myself from posting on this website). This was not well-received (and probably not well-executed on my part), and boom, the exodus started. And I'm fine with that. My work was done. I no longer had a role, nor did I want a role. But through that experience, I think I can relate to some things that Dehlin must have experienced. You get caught up in minutiae and little things seem like big things. It doesn't take much to transition from well-meaning helpful person, to savior and hero, and finally to martyr. Dehlin occupies roles in different worlds, he sits on piles of bones and can't forget a one. He sees himself as central, historical, part of a movement. Perhaps even the leader of a movement, or the inspiration for it. Instead of just owning a little website that discusses issues, he feels like he has become a national figure. And perhaps in a way he has. Surely this is no accident, he tells himself. Destiny requires this. I don't know how self-aware Dehlin is. I suspect he has become quite myopic, living in Utah, with all his friends and connections, battle lines drawn. It's like he is incapable of taking a step back and seeing what it all is. Or perhaps he doesn't care to. Being the leader of anything is quite overrated. And being the leader of something and being almost uniformly rejected is not a lot of fun either. Walking away ain't easy. The church is asking Dehlin to walk away from the empire in his mind. He is not going to. At least not now. Last edited by MikeWaters; 01-21-2015 at 08:43 PM.

01-15-2015, 10:00 PM	#2
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	good point made in the comments. our tolerance is demonstrated by the fact we are not beheading him.

01-15-2015, 10:36 PM	#3
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	This is useful for the following reason: He has turned up the anti-Mormon rhetoric full blast. Some of his donors would only remain donors if he were a member. This would cut off a lot of the funding for what he does.

01-15-2015, 10:38 PM	#4
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	He'll have to rely on the exmo world, I think, because "transitioning" Mormons aren't big enough of a pool to fund his endeavor. I don't think he's in it for the money, because he could be making more elsewhere. But if he wants to be a rock star doing this Mormon thing, he needs funding.

01-16-2015, 04:05 AM	#5
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	He does seem to like being on the NYT rolodex.

01-18-2015, 05:55 PM	#7
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I'm sure most USA Mormons have never heard of him.

01-21-2015, 01:44 PM	#8
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	Nathan Givens (Terryl Givens' son) chimes in. http://difficultrun.nathanielgivens....ch-discipline/ Apparently, Dehlin concealed a letter from the Stake President stating that SSM/OW were not reasons for the discipline, and didn't release it until the media ran off with the narrative. Dehlin responded, but did not address withholding the letter. http://mormonstories.org/reasons-for...inary-council/

01-22-2015, 12:25 AM	#10
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	from time to time since this controversy started, I have browsed Dehlin's facebook page. I have 4 friends who are friends with Dehlin. One has had her records removed from the church. Another has left the church, not sure if she is still on the rolls officially or not. A third I have been told has decided to not attend anymore, don't know anymore details. And the fourth, I have no idea on his status. My impression is that he very much more favored by ex-Mormons than he is believing/practicing Mormons.