I really, genuinely wonder - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Tex · 02-25-2008, 08:43 PM

I really, genuinely wonder what keeps some of you in this church, after reading some of these threads today.

It's not enough to disagree. It's not enough to disagree privately. It's not enough to chat with a bishop or a stake president about your disagreements. It's not enough to write Salt Lake with your disagreements.

You have to be permitted to question every aspect of the faith. You have to know how the money is spent, every dime. You have to be able to question the integrity, the motives, the intent, the righteous, the spirituality, the wisdom--essentially, the mantle--of it's general leadership. You have to be allowed to badmouth the mistakes, intentional or not, of it's lay leadership. The way must be open for you to challenge it's doctrines, it's dead prophets both ancient and modern, it's stories and history, every whit.

And you have to be permitted to do all this in public.

If not--if the church takes any action in any degree to prevent this--the church is an oppressive taskmaster keeping millions of ignorant members ignorant, and squishing out the enlightened few brave enough to challenge the establishment.

Somewhere, buried in a trunk in the attic under a lot of books and old furniture, is a testimony. Or maybe you stay in for cultural ties. But an impartial observer coming to this board from an alien world would wonder why you remain inside an organization whose every move you criticize, in one respect or another.

Archaea · 02-25-2008, 08:45 PM

People can vent here and then go back and bite their tongues. Sometimes it's cathartic to post some drivel and go back to silence.

Taq Man · 02-25-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

I really, genuinely wonder what keeps some of you in this church.

You and me both brother.

MikeWaters · 02-25-2008, 08:46 PM

Keep it up Tex. You and the others who are trying to drive people out of the church. I bet it's working.

Making the kingdom smaller is a lot easier than making it bigger.

Indy Coug · 02-25-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaea

People can vent here and then go back and bite their tongues. Sometimes it's cathartic to post some drivel and go back to silence.

As long as people are honest enough with themselves to recognize it as drivel, then I agree.

BYU71 · 02-25-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

I really, genuinely wonder what keeps some of you in this church, after reading some of these threads today.

It's not enough to disagree. It's not enough to disagree privately. It's not enough to chat with a bishop or a stake president about your disagreements. It's not enough to write Salt Lake with your disagreements.

You have to be permitted to question every aspect of the faith. You have to know how the money is spent, every dime. You have to be able to question the integrity, the motives, the intent, the righteous, the spirituality, the wisdom--essentially, the mantle--of it's general leadership. You have to be allowed to badmouth the mistakes, intentional or not, of it's lay leadership. The way must be open for you to challenge it's doctrines, it's dead prophets both ancient and modern, it's stories and history, every whit.

And you have to be permitted to do all this in public.

If not, the church is an oppressive taskmaster keeping millions of ignorant members ignorant, and squishing out the enlightened few brave enough to challenge the establishment.

Somewhere, buried in a trunk in the attic under a lot of books and old furniture, is a testimony. Or maybe you stay in for cultural ties. But an impartial observer coming to this board from an alien world would wonder why you remain inside an organization whose every move you criticize, in one respect or another.

Yee gads. We now have the "is your testimony good enough to stick around."

I know many people who hung around and actually are Bishops now. Several old fraternity brothers as a matter of fact who really didn't care much for the church. Another guy who referred to mormons as "momo's" who now is a pain in the butt running around trying to get others to toe the line.

If your testimony is solid Tex, reading this stuff won't ruin it.

Tex · 02-25-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Keep it up Tex. You and the others who are trying to drive people out of the church. I bet it's working.

Making the kingdom smaller is a lot easier than making it bigger.

I didn't say I want you out. But I do wonder why you stay.

exUte · 02-25-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

I really, genuinely wonder what keeps some of you in this church, after reading some of these threads today.

It's not enough to disagree. It's not enough to disagree privately. It's not enough to chat with a bishop or a stake president about your disagreements. It's not enough to write Salt Lake with your disagreements.

You have to be permitted to question every aspect of the faith. You have to know how the money is spent, every dime. You have to be able to question the integrity, the motives, the intent, the righteous, the spirituality, the wisdom--essentially, the mantle--of it's general leadership. You have to be allowed to badmouth the mistakes, intentional or not, of it's lay leadership. The way must be open for you to challenge it's doctrines, it's dead prophets both ancient and modern, it's stories and history, every whit.

And you have to be permitted to do all this in public.

If not--if the church takes any action in any degree to prevent this--the church is an oppressive taskmaster keeping millions of ignorant members ignorant, and squishing out the enlightened few brave enough to challenge the establishment.

Somewhere, buried in a trunk in the attic under a lot of books and old furniture, is a testimony. Or maybe you stay in for cultural ties. But an impartial observer coming to this board from an alien world would wonder why you remain inside an organization whose every move you criticize, in one respect or another.

Amen

Sleeping in EQ · 02-25-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

I really, genuinely wonder what keeps some of you in this church, after reading some of these threads today.

It's not enough to disagree. It's not enough to disagree privately. It's not enough to chat with a bishop or a stake president about your disagreements. It's not enough to write Salt Lake with your disagreements.

You have to be permitted to question every aspect of the faith. You have to know how the money is spent, every dime. You have to be able to question the integrity, the motives, the intent, the righteous, the spirituality, the wisdom--essentially, the mantle--of it's general leadership. You have to be allowed to badmouth the mistakes, intentional or not, of it's lay leadership. The way must be open for you to challenge it's doctrines, it's dead prophets both ancient and modern, it's stories and history, every whit.

And you have to be permitted to do all this in public.

If not--if the church takes any action in any degree to prevent this--the church is an oppressive taskmaster keeping millions of ignorant members ignorant, and squishing out the enlightened few brave enough to challenge the establishment.

Somewhere, buried in a trunk in the attic under a lot of books and old furniture, is a testimony. Or maybe you stay in for cultural ties. But an impartial observer coming to this board from an alien world would wonder why you remain inside an organization whose every move you criticize, in one respect or another.

If you really do wonder, you'll read the discussion of Fowler I linked to earlier.

Is there anyone on this site who, albeit implicitly, tries to show people the door as much as you do?

Tex, the open minded champion of understanding, neighbor-loving, and tolerance. Tex, the one who implicitly holds himself up as the example of what he thinks every Mormon should be. Tex, who tries to force conformity to his POV on everyone by hook or crook. Tex, the one person on CG that no one would want sitting in judgment of himself or herself, and who constantly likes to remind everyone that he has the HOI.

MikeWaters · 02-25-2008, 08:52 PM

I have a friend who is not been active in many years. He is inactive because he had friends, so called Mormon intellectuals, who he says were treated very poorly by the church. Doesn't want to participate in the church because of that.

Something in his gut, I guess, makes it seem dishonest and repugnant to sit in the chapel with the Saints. I guess he is being true to himself.

Maybe the day will come where being true to what I believe most in my core will mean that I walk away forever from the church. I don't know. Maybe I will change. Maybe the church will change. But I hope I am true.

02-25-2008, 08:43 PM	#1
Tex Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,596	I really, genuinely wonder I really, genuinely wonder what keeps some of you in this church, after reading some of these threads today. It's not enough to disagree. It's not enough to disagree privately. It's not enough to chat with a bishop or a stake president about your disagreements. It's not enough to write Salt Lake with your disagreements. You have to be permitted to question every aspect of the faith. You have to know how the money is spent, every dime. You have to be able to question the integrity, the motives, the intent, the righteous, the spirituality, the wisdom--essentially, the mantle--of it's general leadership. You have to be allowed to badmouth the mistakes, intentional or not, of it's lay leadership. The way must be open for you to challenge it's doctrines, it's dead prophets both ancient and modern, it's stories and history, every whit. And you have to be permitted to do all this in public. If not--if the church takes any action in any degree to prevent this--the church is an oppressive taskmaster keeping millions of ignorant members ignorant, and squishing out the enlightened few brave enough to challenge the establishment. Somewhere, buried in a trunk in the attic under a lot of books and old furniture, is a testimony. Or maybe you stay in for cultural ties. But an impartial observer coming to this board from an alien world would wonder why you remain inside an organization whose every move you criticize, in one respect or another. __________________ "Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young Last edited by Tex; 02-25-2008 at 08:46 PM.

02-25-2008, 08:45 PM	#2
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	People can vent here and then go back and bite their tongues. Sometimes it's cathartic to post some drivel and go back to silence. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

02-25-2008, 08:46 PM	#4
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Keep it up Tex. You and the others who are trying to drive people out of the church. I bet it's working. Making the kingdom smaller is a lot easier than making it bigger.

02-25-2008, 08:52 PM	#10
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I have a friend who is not been active in many years. He is inactive because he had friends, so called Mormon intellectuals, who he says were treated very poorly by the church. Doesn't want to participate in the church because of that. Something in his gut, I guess, makes it seem dishonest and repugnant to sit in the chapel with the Saints. I guess he is being true to himself. Maybe the day will come where being true to what I believe most in my core will mean that I walk away forever from the church. I don't know. Maybe I will change. Maybe the church will change. But I hope I am true.