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realtall · 02-07-2006, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-American

I recognize that many honest evaluations of the available evidence show that there is much that is evil at the root of Islam. I don't think that the struggle with Islam will end, however, if we keep bringing it up. If we can separate militant extremism from all traces of the religion of Islam in our own perception, and show peace-loving muslims that there is a place in the world for them, we will have won the most important battle of the war.

Maybe I should expound a tad more.

Your point is well taken about not lumping them all in the same category.

I do not reject muslims as a nation. I can appreciate their talents and goodness just like I can of people of any other religion. I am just very, very wary of the powers that be in the middle east who are pulling all the strings. They do not have our best interests at heart.

All-American · 02-07-2006, 01:45 PM

If it were an easy question, somebody would have answered it by now.

The book of Mormon happens to have a lot of details regarding what to do when an entire people seems genetically predisposed to kill you. By and large the solution has been to accept them with open arms, rather than defeat them in battle (which really will only perpetuate the feud). The thing that really ended the Amalikiah war was not just the fact that Captain Moroni et all were soundly defeating the Lamanites, but that the Lamanites stopped wanting to fight. This is at least in part attributable to the VERY generous terms of surrender Captain Moroni granted to them-- something which we modern day Americans would never concede to. Can you imagine us saying to Osama Bin Laden that we'd stop trying to post his head on a pike if he promised not to hurt us anymore?

The ones who got the war finished were the ones that insisted that the Lamanites were brethren who had their rights, notwithstanding whatever faulty leadership they had. And sure enough, it worked. In order to extend that right, however, Nephites had to be willing to lay their lives on the line to protect their new-found brethren. Which leads to another really good question: if we are so willing to go to war to defend ourselves, are we willing to go to war to protect Muslims?

Anyway, to summarize, I truly feel that as long as we perpetuate Muslim antagonism, the struggle will never end. You can say the same thing for their side, but what is the shame of making the first step in providing a peaceful solution, even if you do so alone?

myboynoah · 02-07-2006, 03:11 PM

Just posted this on CB. Kinda long. Sorry.

Yesterday I was asked about the persecution complex of French Muslims. I also noted some discussion on what constituted persecution and what did not. I suspect that depends a lot upon where one stands. I’m not Muslim and can’t speak for them, but I have observed things here and want to present some thoughts to consider:

Muslims probably feel that the things they hold sacred are trivialized or even denigrated by European political and cultural elites. The headscarf issue is perfect example of this. For whatever reason, Muslim custom and practice dictate that modest dress for teenage girls and women include wearing a headscarf or other covering. We’re not talking about something that covers the face, just something that covers the hair. The French, applying a strict version of Church/State separation, decided that teenage girls are not allowed to wear these headscarves to public schools. When I discussed this with my French colleagues, they became oddly exercised and emotional. They were totally inflexible. The underlying sentiment was that when people immigrate to France, they should assimilate and become French. I suspect Muslims look at this reaction and feel that their culture and religion are under attack, especially when it comes to their teenage daughters, having immodesty forced upon them. That’s the inane and trivial. The more serious denigration comes with the publishing of the cartoons. This is where Muslims get really exercised. Not only was their prophet intentionally shown in an image, but unflatteringly in some cases. I just don’t think any analogy we can come up with can help us understand how degrading this was and I doubt any explanation of the virtues of the freedom of the press can bridge this gap. If you’re a Muslim, you feel persecuted.

French police are unhampered by profiling laws. Non-whites in certain neighborhoods are watched and stopped on a regular basis. The two kids, whose deaths led to last year’s riots, ended up in the electrical substation where they were electrocuted because they were trying to avoid a random police checkpoint. The riots escalated and became a release point for a population tired of police abuse. Additionally, Paris was in an uproar over a year ago at reports that young Muslim tuffs on a major train line harassed and mugged a young mother and child they thought were Jewish. President Chirac publicly lamented the direction in which French society was heading. Problem was, it was a lie; perpetrated by the woman to explain why she couldn’t pay her bills. But it was certainly believed by the majority. Facing ongoing police harassment and racial profiling by society, if you’re Muslim, you feel persecuted.

Due to widespread discrimination, Muslims (as well as other non-whites) have limited professional options in France. It’s as if they are invisible (on TV, in politics, in the government, in the boardroom). One reason for this is that France prides itself for its merit-based system. The French believe that the smartest should rule. Hence the best and brightest filter up through the education system to the Grande Ecoles (for lack of a better analogy, the Harvards, Yales, Stanfords, etc. of France) where, upon graduation, they are slotted for powerful positions in French government and industry. The rest of society filters down to the appropriate levels. The problem for Muslims (and other non-whites) is that the schools in their neighborhoods, much like inner city U.S. schools, are far from equal to those attended by white kids. They start out behind and never catch up. Not surprisingly, the Grande Ecoles pump out white graduate after white graduate. The discrimination doesn’t stop there. A group recently sent out two sets of identical resumes to potential French employers, one set with traditional French names, the other with Arab names. Want to guess the difference in call back rate? Now, one might say that discrimination goes on everywhere, and that is correct. However, the French Government does not acknowledge the discrimination, and hence, does nothing to prevent or address it. Hence, Muslims and other non-whites feel they have very little investment in this society. Under these circumstances, if you’re Muslim (or non-white), you feel persecuted

All this said, I doubt most Muslims in France are really all that religious. The riots last year were not about religion. They were about people being fed up with a system that offered them little or not hope of progressing beyond their squalid circumstances. But prime that pump with a little religious bigotry and one could have problems. In other words, “All this yewt, and now this?!?!?!?”

I hope this, as long as it is, helps.

Sleeping in EQ · 02-07-2006, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyHippieUTE

http://www.cougarboard.com/noframes/message.html?id=1741459

I'd rather have this conversation here...

I wont disagree with you that we have one of the highest standards of decency in the world.

However, despite our high standards we too have been guilty of the exact kind of hate and bloodlust that we claim to be the "evil" in our enemy.

What I was seeing on CB today really made me sick. The way many of the posters over there portray "all" Muslims as the modern version of the Lamanites is flat out racism. It honestly reminds me of the type of propaganda the Nazis used to portray the Jews as sub human.

Am I so far out on a limb here?

Is it so impossible to see how we could be reasonably thought of as evil by those who look at us as oppressors?

You weren't the only one who was disgusted, Hippie. I stopped reading posts in that thread because I was getting queasy.

realtall · 02-08-2006, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myboynoah

All this said, I doubt most Muslims in France are really all that religious. The riots last year were not about religion. They were about people being fed up with a system that offered them little or not hope of progressing beyond their squalid circumstances. But prime that pump with a little religious bigotry and one could have problems. In other words, “All this yewt, and now this?!?!?!?”

I detest discrimination in all its forms. I think that's unfair(from the human side) and illogical(from the business side). Its just stupid.

As far as your description of descrimination against muslims in france goes, I can't help but wonder how a white french citizen would be treated if he were to emigrate to Iran with his family and live there. Not that those muslims living in france would be somehow reponsible for that - I'm just guessing that the muslim theocracies go even farther with the concept then the french.

Not that any of it is right, of course, but its a door that swings both ways.

Its a nasty problem to be sure. As AA stated above, if it were easy it would be solved by now.

02-07-2006, 01:45 PM	#22
All-American Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,420	If it were an easy question, somebody would have answered it by now. The book of Mormon happens to have a lot of details regarding what to do when an entire people seems genetically predisposed to kill you. By and large the solution has been to accept them with open arms, rather than defeat them in battle (which really will only perpetuate the feud). The thing that really ended the Amalikiah war was not just the fact that Captain Moroni et all were soundly defeating the Lamanites, but that the Lamanites stopped wanting to fight. This is at least in part attributable to the VERY generous terms of surrender Captain Moroni granted to them-- something which we modern day Americans would never concede to. Can you imagine us saying to Osama Bin Laden that we'd stop trying to post his head on a pike if he promised not to hurt us anymore? The ones who got the war finished were the ones that insisted that the Lamanites were brethren who had their rights, notwithstanding whatever faulty leadership they had. And sure enough, it worked. In order to extend that right, however, Nephites had to be willing to lay their lives on the line to protect their new-found brethren. Which leads to another really good question: if we are so willing to go to war to defend ourselves, are we willing to go to war to protect Muslims? Anyway, to summarize, I truly feel that as long as we perpetuate Muslim antagonism, the struggle will never end. You can say the same thing for their side, but what is the shame of making the first step in providing a peaceful solution, even if you do so alone? __________________ εν αρχη ην ο λογος

02-07-2006, 03:11 PM	#23
myboynoah Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Memphis freakin' Tennessee!!!!! Posts: 4,530	Just posted this on CB. Kinda long. Sorry. Yesterday I was asked about the persecution complex of French Muslims. I also noted some discussion on what constituted persecution and what did not. I suspect that depends a lot upon where one stands. I’m not Muslim and can’t speak for them, but I have observed things here and want to present some thoughts to consider: Muslims probably feel that the things they hold sacred are trivialized or even denigrated by European political and cultural elites. The headscarf issue is perfect example of this. For whatever reason, Muslim custom and practice dictate that modest dress for teenage girls and women include wearing a headscarf or other covering. We’re not talking about something that covers the face, just something that covers the hair. The French, applying a strict version of Church/State separation, decided that teenage girls are not allowed to wear these headscarves to public schools. When I discussed this with my French colleagues, they became oddly exercised and emotional. They were totally inflexible. The underlying sentiment was that when people immigrate to France, they should assimilate and become French. I suspect Muslims look at this reaction and feel that their culture and religion are under attack, especially when it comes to their teenage daughters, having immodesty forced upon them. That’s the inane and trivial. The more serious denigration comes with the publishing of the cartoons. This is where Muslims get really exercised. Not only was their prophet intentionally shown in an image, but unflatteringly in some cases. I just don’t think any analogy we can come up with can help us understand how degrading this was and I doubt any explanation of the virtues of the freedom of the press can bridge this gap. If you’re a Muslim, you feel persecuted. French police are unhampered by profiling laws. Non-whites in certain neighborhoods are watched and stopped on a regular basis. The two kids, whose deaths led to last year’s riots, ended up in the electrical substation where they were electrocuted because they were trying to avoid a random police checkpoint. The riots escalated and became a release point for a population tired of police abuse. Additionally, Paris was in an uproar over a year ago at reports that young Muslim tuffs on a major train line harassed and mugged a young mother and child they thought were Jewish. President Chirac publicly lamented the direction in which French society was heading. Problem was, it was a lie; perpetrated by the woman to explain why she couldn’t pay her bills. But it was certainly believed by the majority. Facing ongoing police harassment and racial profiling by society, if you’re Muslim, you feel persecuted. Due to widespread discrimination, Muslims (as well as other non-whites) have limited professional options in France. It’s as if they are invisible (on TV, in politics, in the government, in the boardroom). One reason for this is that France prides itself for its merit-based system. The French believe that the smartest should rule. Hence the best and brightest filter up through the education system to the Grande Ecoles (for lack of a better analogy, the Harvards, Yales, Stanfords, etc. of France) where, upon graduation, they are slotted for powerful positions in French government and industry. The rest of society filters down to the appropriate levels. The problem for Muslims (and other non-whites) is that the schools in their neighborhoods, much like inner city U.S. schools, are far from equal to those attended by white kids. They start out behind and never catch up. Not surprisingly, the Grande Ecoles pump out white graduate after white graduate. The discrimination doesn’t stop there. A group recently sent out two sets of identical resumes to potential French employers, one set with traditional French names, the other with Arab names. Want to guess the difference in call back rate? Now, one might say that discrimination goes on everywhere, and that is correct. However, the French Government does not acknowledge the discrimination, and hence, does nothing to prevent or address it. Hence, Muslims and other non-whites feel they have very little investment in this society. Under these circumstances, if you’re Muslim (or non-white), you feel persecuted All this said, I doubt most Muslims in France are really all that religious. The riots last year were not about religion. They were about people being fed up with a system that offered them little or not hope of progressing beyond their squalid circumstances. But prime that pump with a little religious bigotry and one could have problems. In other words, “All this yewt, and now this?!?!?!?” I hope this, as long as it is, helps. __________________ Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!! Religion rises inevitably from our apprehension of our own death. To give meaning to meaninglessness is the endless quest of all religion. When death becomes the center of our consciousness, then religion authentically begins. Of all religions that I know, the one that most vehemently and persuasively defies and denies the reality of death is the original Mormonism of the Prophet, Seer and Revelator, Joseph Smith.