How much education does a SAHM need?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

But let me ask that you further elaborate on point 3. What was the nature of this institutional repression? How did it manifest itself? Who were its primary conveyors? What happened to those who tried to buck the trend?

There is a long history to my informal investigation of this.

I will just say that it started with looking at the list of people from BYU admitted to medical school, and seeing this growing list I noticed that there were almost no women on the list. I can't remember the total number--130 people or so, maybe more. There were 3 female names.

I'm not going to share my entire history here, but suffice it to say that I became extremely confident, as I poked around further, that women were being discouraged from going into medicine at BYU.

You have to be very naive to find this surprising.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

There is a long history to my informal investigation of this.

I will just say that it started with looking at the list of people from BYU admitted to medical school, and seeing this growing list I noticed that there were almost no women on the list. I can't remember the total number--130 people or so, maybe more. There were 3 female names.

I'm not going to share my entire history here, but suffice it to say that I became extremely confident, as I poked around further, that women were being discouraged from going into medicine at BYU.

You have to be very naive to find this surprising.

Mike, I've already agreed that there is a greater tendency for LDS women to stay at home instead of go on to get educations. What I am not seeing is women being discouraged from pursuing an education and enduring institutional repression if they try to do it. I have friends and family members who are going on missions, getting masters and doctoral degrees, and using their education in the workplace. Some of them didn't get married because the opportunity never arose; others had legitimate offers on the table and turned them down to pursue opportunities. Still others got married, had or are having children, and are STILL pursuing education and career. The response to these women from friends, family, and mentors around them has overwhelmingly been support for these women who are following their dreams.

What I see and hear from these girls RIGHT NOW is a very different picture from the one you are painting. Maybe I am unaware of what kind of repression these girls have had to face; if so, enlighten me, please.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

Mike, I've already agreed that there is a greater tendency for LDS women to stay at home instead of go on to get educations. What I am not seeing is women being discouraged from pursuing an education and enduring institutional repression if they try to do it. I have friends and family members who are going on missions, getting masters and doctoral degrees, and using their education in the workplace. Some of them didn't get married because the opportunity never arose; others had legitimate offers on the table and turned them down to pursue opportunities. Still others got married, had or are having children, and are STILL pursuing education and career. The response to these women from friends, family, and mentors around them has overwhelmingly been support for these women who are following their dreams.

What I see and hear from these girls RIGHT NOW is a very different picture from the one you are painting. Maybe I am unaware of what kind of repression these girls have had to face; if so, enlighten me, please.

Yes, you are unaware. You see only the world you want to see.

I spoke to many women who provided me with the specifics of how they had been actively discouraged.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Yes, you are unaware. You see only the world you want to see.

I spoke to many women who provided me with the specifics of how they had been actively discouraged.

Then enlighten me. Please.

My experience shows me something different than what your experience shows you. I'd be happy to hear your perspective. I'm not just going to take your word for it.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

Then enlighten me. Please.

My experience shows me something different than what your experience shows you. I'd be happy to hear your perspective. I'm not just going to take your word for it.

For reasons that I do not care to explain, I do not wish to discuss how I came to know things, what I did about it, and the aftermath.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by All-American

Mike, I've already agreed that there is a greater tendency for LDS women to stay at home instead of go on to get educations. What I am not seeing is women being discouraged from pursuing an education and enduring institutional repression if they try to do it. I have friends and family members who are going on missions, getting masters and doctoral degrees, and using their education in the workplace. Some of them didn't get married because the opportunity never arose; others had legitimate offers on the table and turned them down to pursue opportunities. Still others got married, had or are having children, and are STILL pursuing education and career. The response to these women from friends, family, and mentors around them has overwhelmingly been support for these women who are following their dreams.

What I see and hear from these girls RIGHT NOW is a very different picture from the one you are painting. Maybe I am unaware of what kind of repression these girls have had to face; if so, enlighten me, please.

I don't know that overt institutional oppression exists at BYU as Waters describes, but I had similar thoughts when I was at BYU too. I think if you look at women in your ward, you will note that there are very few professional women around, far fewer than you would expect given the education levels of most people in your wards. Whether that is a result of pressure applied at BYU or general church pressure (or whether the pressure at BYU, if any, is the result of general church pressure too), is certainly debatable.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I don't know that overt institutional oppression exists at BYU as Waters describes, but I had similar thoughts when I was at BYU too. I think if you look at women in your ward, you will note that there are very few professional women around, far fewer than you would expect given the education levels of most people in your wards. Whether that is a result of pressure applied at BYU or general church pressure (or whether the pressure at BYU, if any, is the result of general church pressure too), is certainly debatable.

The idea that the church's culture creates tremendous pressure against women choosing professional careers, but somehow BYU exerts NO institutional pressure--think about that idea for a minute. Even if you didn't know anything about BYU, didn't know any examples, didn't know any names or circumstances, how likely is that to be true?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

For reasons that I do not care to explain, I do not wish to discuss how I came to know things, what I did about it, and the aftermath.

Very good. Thanks.

[MikeWaters]

My reason for not wanting to explain has nothing to do with AA.

I was naive enough to think that I could do something about it.

In the end, I decided not to act, because I thought it was unfair for the few to be punished, when the many were guilty.

So instead of tackling the many, I gave up, and moved on with my life. Leaving, no doubt, enemies seething in the wake.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

My reason for not wanting to explain has nothing to do with AA.

I was naive enough to think that I could do something about it.

In the end, I decided not to act, because I thought it was unfair for the few to be punished, when the many were guilty.

So instead of tackling the many, I gave up, and moved on with my life. Leaving, no doubt, enemies seething in the wake.

Were they individual episodes? Isolated incidents? Were there recurring players?

I'll concede that there are incidents where bright, capable, and talented LDS women with bright futures were discouraged from pursuing their dreams and encouraged to be a stay at home mom instead. I'm not convinced that such episodes are so common as to constitute institutional repression, nor that such women will inevitably face it.