On martyrdom and men's self delusions

[SeattleUte]

H.L. Mencken:

"As a matter of fact, it
seems to me that an idea that happens to be true--or, more exactly, as
near to truth as any human idea can be, and yet remain generally
intelligible--it seems to me that such an idea carries a special and
often fatal handicap. The majority of men prefer delusion to truth. It
soothes. It is easy to grasp. Above all, it fits more snugly than the
truth into a universe of false appearances--of complex and irrational
phenomena, defectively grasped. But though an idea that is true is thus
not likely to prevail, an idea that is _attacked_ enjoys a great
advantage. The evidence behind it is now supported by sympathy, the
sporting instinct, sentimentality--and sentimentality is as powerful as
an army with banners. One never hears of a martyr in history whose
notions are seriously disputed today. The forgotten ideas are those of
the men who put them forward soberly and quietly, hoping fatuously that
they would conquer by the force of their truth; these are the ideas that
we now struggle to rediscover. Had Nietzsche lived to be burned at the
stake by outraged Mississippi Methodists, it would have been a glorious
day for his doctrines."

I note Waters' allusion a while ago to the possibility, as with all martyrdoms, of a covert, unspoken conspiracy between JS and his martyrers. I think this is a facinating, valid point. In Spain for centuries the primary means of Christian resistance to Muslim occupation was deliberate martyrdom, including mortification of the flesh. During the reconquista these martyrs were well rememberd. Christ, or more precisely the authors of the Gospels, understood this principle.

Discuss

[Levin]

Mencken describes a truth (although how he is able to in this mysterious and incomprehensible world, I don't know): martyrs evoke sympathy and respect from the followers. This sympathy and respect for the martyer results in increased adoration for and belief in the martyr's mission/teachings. That is undoubtedly true.

But it's Mencken's unstated premise that is bothersome: survivors believe more fervently in a martyr's mission/teachings because of the person's death, and not because of the increased merits of the martyr's teachings. This implies that because the veracity of the martyr's teachings is somehow artificially inflated by death, the actual truth or worth of the martyr's teachings should be likewise discounted.

I fail to see how my increased devotion to Joseph Smith's teachings due to his martyrdom has anything to do whith the underlying truth of those teachings or the legitimacy of his mission. But that is the unstated connection Mencken (and you) are making. It does not logically follow.

[Levin]

Shorter version: Knowing Mencken, he's cleverly arguing that our ability to evaluate the martyr's mission in an objective manner is severely compromised by our emotional response to the martyr's death. But what does this have to do with whether the underlying mission is divine or not?

[SeattleUte]

I think all he's saying is martrydom is one way to ensure rememberance and adoration at least in some significant corner regardless of the whether the content of the message is worthwhile.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I think all he's saying is martrydom is one way to ensure rememberance and adoration at least in some significant corner regardless of the whether the content of the message is worthwhile.

If that's all you think, why did you label your post, "on martyrdom and men's self delusions"

[Levin]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I think all he's saying is martrydom is one way to ensure rememberance and adoration at least in some significant corner regardless of the whether the content of the message is worthwhile.

Or I just saw your new byline . . . kind of discredits your assertion about "all he's saying." He's very much saying something about the veracity of the martyr's message.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Levin

If that's all you think, why did you label your post, "on martyrdom and men's self delusions"

He addresses both subjects in the quote. They don't necessarily overlap, however. Note he was an admirer of Nietszche and seems to be saying, "If only a bunch of religious nuts had martyred Nietszche."

[Levin]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

He addresses both subjects in the quote. They don't necessarily overlap, however. Note he was an admirer of Nietszche and seems to be saying, "If only a bunch of religious nuts had martyred Nietszche."

Yeah, what he's saying is, "it would work for my guy just like it worked for your fraud-of-a-martyr." The original principle applies to all martyrs, is what he's saying, to his peeps and to my peeps.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

H.L. Mencken:

"As a matter of fact, it
seems to me that an idea that happens to be true--or, more exactly, as
near to truth as any human idea can be, and yet remain generally
intelligible--it seems to me that such an idea carries a special and
often fatal handicap. The majority of men prefer delusion to truth. It
soothes. It is easy to grasp. Above all, it fits more snugly than the
truth into a universe of false appearances--of complex and irrational
phenomena, defectively grasped. But though an idea that is true is thus
not likely to prevail, an idea that is _attacked_ enjoys a great
advantage. The evidence behind it is now supported by sympathy, the
sporting instinct, sentimentality--and sentimentality is as powerful as
an army with banners. One never hears of a martyr in history whose
notions are seriously disputed today. The forgotten ideas are those of
the men who put them forward soberly and quietly, hoping fatuously that
they would conquer by the force of their truth; these are the ideas that
we now struggle to rediscover. Had Nietzsche lived to be burned at the
stake by outraged Mississippi Methodists, it would have been a glorious
day for his doctrines."

I note Waters' allusion a while ago to the possibility, as with all martyrdoms, of a covert, unspoken conspiracy between JS and his martyrers. I think this is a facinating, valid point. In Spain for centuries the primary means of Christian resistance to Muslim occupation was deliberate martyrdom, including mortification of the flesh. During the reconquista these martyrs were well rememberd. Christ, or more precisely the authors of the Gospels, understood this principle.

Discuss

That's a great quote.

I suppose martyrs anticipate some type of immortality - being remembered after they're gone.

[creekster]

In some ways, all martyrs really show tremendous faith in an after life, it seems ot me. Otherwise, what possible difference can it make if you are remembered? WHy would you possibly care? THis is somethign I have never been able to grasp.