Historians have usurped the prophets

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Adam

Exactly, that is what I'm saying. Just like with the SWK end to the priesthood ban, the revelation is nearly always a confirmation of a decision made.

God doesn't micro-manage. He allows the law of the harvest to operate. Even for those "of neccessity" who are called to lead the Church.

I do agree with you here Adam. I think Gods involvement is minimal. However, to say otherwise would dissapoint a lot of people who count on leaders telling them what to do and those leaders actually being continual direct links to God.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Adam

So you do believe that the best possible path for the restoration went through Fanny's pants, bankruptcy in Kirtland, the Liberty jail, and Haun's Mill?

You're confused about the nature of God's involvement. In your mind, if God doesn't wrap protective hands around his saints and prevent them from any ill or committing any wrong, he's not involved.

It's a very clumsy position.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I do agree with you here Adam. I think Gods involvement is minimal. However, to say otherwise would dissapoint a lot of people who count on leaders telling them what to do and those leaders actually being continual direct links to God.

Yet, there are continual direct links to God available to each member in their very Ward, Stake and home ... this whole discussion woefully misses the point.

Many here paint in such extreme colours -what of nuanced tertiary colours that make up the revelation process ... it's not all wise decision making by good men who then seek confirmation and it's not all a heavenly messenger's sudden appearance giving leaders explicit instruction …

It's a healthy dose of both –in equal parts!

[Tex]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Yet, there are continual direct links to God available to each member in their very Ward, Stake and home ... this whole discussion woefully misses the point.

Many here paint in such extreme colours -what of nuanced tertiary colours that make up the revelation process ... it's not all wise decision making by good men who then seek confirmation and it's not all a heavenly messenger's sudden appearance giving leaders explicit instruction …

It's a healthy dose of both –in equal parts!

This is what I have been getting at.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Adam

It is very interesting that Elder Haight claims that the revelation was recieved by SWK in the meeting with all the Apostles--he emphasises over and over again that he was there when the revelation was recieved. In contrast, SWK said that the decision came over time "there slowly grew a deep, abiding impression to go forward with the change." p. 218 of Lengthen Your Stride: The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball by Edward L. Kimball.

What happened, according to the actual text of the second manifesto and born out in the recounting of the events, was i) SWK made the decision to end the ban, ii) a long political process was engaged in by SWK to get everybody on board, and iii) "revelation has confirmed" the decision.

The revelation was not telling SWK to end the ban. The revelation was a confirmation of SWK decision to end the ban. Big difference.

Some mistake the confirmation with the supposed revelation. And maybe Haight and other leaders intend to mislead the masses to perpetuate their power or to minimize dissent.

Some other excerpts from the Kimball bio:

Elder Packer said of President Kimball's role in the revelation: "No one else could have done this; there is none so innocent and open, so sensitive." [read "not racist"] p. 235

President Hinckley is quoted hinting that SWK's predecessors were not as motivated to end the ban "He was not the first to worry about the priesthood question, but he had the compassion to pursue it and a boldness that allowed him to act, to get the revelation." [when you read "compassion" and "boldness" think "he wasn't racist"] p. 215

Elder Perry agreed: "I don't think we've had a president more willing to entreat the lord or more receptive since the Prophet Joseph." p 222

SWK is quoted "Revelations will probably never come unless they are desired" p. 216

Francis M. gibbons, secretary to the First Presidency, observed that during the year before the revelation was announced President Kimball seemed focused on the issue. The President repeatedly invited the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve to discuss the issue at length and urged them to speak freely. A few said little or nothing when the topic was raised, and President Kimball invited them to talk with him in private. He could not let the matter rest. He seemed so intent on resolving the issue--with full unity among the leadership--that others worried. Elder Boyd K. Packer said to him "Why don't you forget this?" But he quickly answered his own question: "Because you can't. The Lord won't let you." p. 216

Francis Gibbons sensed that President Kimball had already come to know God's will and was now struggling with how to unify all Church leaders in support. p. 218

[In the meeting Elder Haight referrs to where the "revelation" was recieved, SWK] outlined the direction his thoughts had carried him--the fading of his reluctance, the disappearance of objections the growing assurance he had recieved the tenative decision he had reached. [Only after biasing the discussion this did he ask the other Apostles what they thought.] p. 221

He had reached a decision afer great struggle, and he desperately wanted the Lord's confirmation, if it would come. p 221

During that insistent prayer, those present felt something powerful, unifying, ineffeble. . . Elder L. Tom Perry recalled: . . . I feld something like the rushing of wind. There was a feeling that came over the whole group. When President Kimball got up he was visibly relieved and overjoyed.. p. 222

In the meeting two days later to inform the 70s SWK spoke: "As a boy in Arizona i wondered by the Indians were so poor and looked down upon. I asked my Father, who was kind and never too busy to answer my questions. . . Later i asked him about blacks and the priesthood. My father said that the time would come when they would recieve the priesthood. I believed him." p. 227

As evident in your quotions it is a healthy dose of sudden revelation that is preceeded by preparation of learning, growth and study. Gosh, such a process is unusually consistent with scripture.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Yet, there are continual direct links to God available to each member in their very Ward, Stake and home ... this whole discussion woefully misses the point.

Many here paint in such extreme colours -what of nuanced tertiary colours that make up the revelation process ... it's not all wise decision making by good men who then seek confirmation and it's not all a heavenly messenger's sudden appearance giving leaders explicit instruction …

It's a healthy dose of both –in equal parts!

Yes there are. Listen to Dwyer, Og Mandino, Napoleon Hill and all the other great self help guys and they recognize the power of communing with the almighty. They may all define the almighty differently, but they all recognize it.

I would never knock or belittle ones experience with prayer for himself. I just want him to always recognize his prayers never trump mine. My answer for me trumps his answer for me.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Adam

There was no "sudden revelation" regarding the priesthood ban for blacks. SWK worked the Apostles for months. The end game was a meeting where he started with a speach in which he told them he had made the decision to lift the ban (they knew it was coming) destroyed the expected objections point by point and said he wanted uniminity and wanted confirmation from God that it was right. Each Apostle then spoke in favor of the policy change SWK had been selling for months. Then SWK prayed for confirmation and the Spirit decended upon them powerfully confirming the decision. In no way can this be honestly described as a "sudden revelation".

SWK feared schism's in the church--it was Camilla's first thought when she heard. To avoid this posibility, he carefully cultivated concensus. Very smart.

My point is that, as is typical, an understanding of the process destroys the pollyannaish idea that the ban was God's will up until that great day in 1978 and then God's will suddenly changed. If HBL has lived, the ban would have remained. If HBB had become President the ban would have been lifted earlier.

Bottom line, it is dishonest to characterize what happened as "sudden revelation" in any way, shape or form.

Maybe it was sudden when you consider how long the Universe has been in existence.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Adam

There was no "sudden revelation" regarding the priesthood ban for blacks. SWK worked the Apostles for months. The end game was a meeting where he started with a speach in which he told them he had made the decision to lift the ban (they knew it was coming) destroyed the expected objections point by point and said he wanted uniminity and wanted confirmation from God that it was right. Each Apostle then spoke in favor of the policy change SWK had been selling for months. Then SWK prayed for confirmation and the Spirit decended upon them powerfully confirming the decision. In no way can this be honestly described as a "sudden revelation".

SWK feared schism's in the church--it was Camilla's first thought when she heard. To avoid this posibility, he carefully cultivated concensus. Very smart.

My point is that, as is typical, an understanding of the process destroys the pollyannaish idea that the ban was God's will up until that great day in 1978 and then God's will suddenly changed. If HBL has lived, the ban would have remained. If HBB had become President the ban would have been lifted earlier.

Bottom line, it is dishonest to characterize what happened as "sudden revelation" in any way, shape or form.

Your myopia is disheartening ... When he stood and voiced his decision, all searching, questioning, study and reflection was set aside in favour of support for a Prophet and mouth piece of God ... the confirmation you speak of does not follow the decision and is not a result of subsiquent prayer. It is was invited into the process at the very moment he spoke -it was 'sudden' and very powerful as is evident in your quotations of those who were there

You speak as if the apostles had to be worked -that is a dishonest characterization! Their role is to question, study and reflect on the subject, and voice their concerns and even objections. Any amount of time spent in a leadership role where the process is similar would confirm such.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Your myopia is disheartening ... When he stood and voiced his decision, all searching, questioning, study and reflection was set aside in favour of support for a Prophet and mouth piece of God ... the confirmation you speak of does not follow the decision and is not a result of subsiquent prayer. It is was invited into the process at the very moment he spoke -it was 'sudden' and very powerful as is evident in your quotations of those who were there

You speak as if the apostles had to be worked -that is a dishonest characterization! Their role is to question, study and reflect on the subject, and voice their concerns and even objections. Any amount of time spent in a leadership role where the process is similar would confirm such.

I can almost guarantee you it didn't happen the way Adam portrays. This is the great disservice perpetrated by the DOM book (and perhaps my biggest complaint about it) ... it really factors out most all of the spiritual elements of the church and prophet. It reduces the church to nothing more than a run-of-the-mill mundane beauracracy, led by squabbling, self-interested men (*insert SU comment here*).

While the research is good and the stories are fascinating, the paucity of references to their altruism, desires to serve and follow and please the Lord, and do the best for the spiritual welfare church is a glaring error. Perhaps they felt leaving it out would help it have a broader non-Mormon appeal, I don't know. Some chapters are better than others.

The 4th chapter in particular suffers from this problem.

[MikeWaters]

Based on my stake president's recitation from the SWK biography, it was as Adam desribed--a long arduous process of consensus building over many, many months.

When I say consensus process, I don't mean that SWK was bullying them, or even really telling them what to believe or think. He was signaling that "this is on the Lord's agenda, get aboard."

Tex will now have to blame both the authors of DOM and SWK biographies for these "lies".