In my opinion

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Further, Bronco's low, the 2005 year, is nowhere near the low that Patterson's 2004 club hit.

Can you have a low after only two seasons?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Has Patterson beaten a team other than CSU in 2000 that finished the year ranked?

I am not going to research, but from my memory Patterson's best win was CSU. I know he beat Oklahoma but didn't the Sooners finish that year at about .500?

So if Patterson's best win, with a 5 year head start on Bronco, is beating a ranked MWC team just as Bronco's is, why is it relevant that Bronco's was Patterson?

Further, Bronco's low, the 2005 year, is nowhere near the low that Patterson's 2004 club hit.

Oklahoma was ranked 22nd in the Final AP ranking in 2005.

Bronco's low was to finish 6-6, while Patterson finished 5-6. This is "nowhere near"?

Since 2000, BYU has finished in the top 25 twice. TCU has finished in the top 25 five times in the same period (only missing out twice).

Don't forget, in many respects it was the terrible defense under Bronco Mendenhall that led to Crowton getting fired.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

BYU has an easier time recruiting because of its institutional strength and tradition.

An example would be Rutgers and Notre Dame. ND will recruit better than Rutgers, even if Rutgers doesn't lose another game, and ND doesn't win a game the rest of the season.

Btw, there is no law in Texas that says Texas recruits must stay in Texas. Texas recruits go all over the country. OU, UT, A&M are just the locals in line.

Of the top 100 Texas recruits this year, only 3 have committed to non-BCS schools--one each to Houston, North Texas, and TCU. The only reason North Texas is on the list is because the recruit is the coach's son. The one TCU recruit is ranked 92nd, lest we are under the illusion that this is a top 20 recruit. Did you notice which school dominates the list? Hint: it's not in Texas.

Unfortunately the top 100 for Utah only displays the top 10. How many of these players have committed to a BCS school? Zero.

You still want to argue that TCU has it easier? TCU with its empty stadium, with it's commuter students?

I think there are many variables that define the relative ease or difficulty of attracting good players to come to a school. I think that proximity to recruits is one of the top variables. Certainly prestige and national reputation enter into the mix, but you are not really arguing that BYU's reputation, which is not much outside of Utah, Mesa, Safford, Thatcher, Moapa Valley, North Shore of Hawaii and God's Country (SE Idaho) gives BYU a significant advantage versus a school in Texas with access to hundreds of D1A caliber players right in its own backyard? While OU may get what it wants and then Texas, aTm and Tech might pick up the lions share the point is that Texas probably produces 20x the d1a talent that Utah does, and that doesn't even take into account the fact that the order of magnitude for legitimate D1A skill players is probably closer to 50X if not 100.

Further, BYU's honor code poses a significant challenge and cannot be underestimated how it impacts recruiting regardless if the coach proclaims it an advantage. It also has the negative impact of creating more reasons for attrition of a recruiting class than just the regular ones every division one a program faces.

So as my post clearly proves, it mattereth not if OU gets its pick of the litter. Those were not the FYM I was referencing. TCU has local access to hundreds of athletes that Utah doesn't provide. Further the LDS base nationwide doesn't provide. I think both schools face challenges to recruiting but I don't accept that BYU's are any easier to overcome than TCU's.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Don't forget, in many respects it was the terrible defense under Bronco Mendenhall that led to Crowton getting fired.

I can't disagree strongly enough with that claim.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Oklahoma was ranked 22nd in the Final AP ranking in 2005.

Bronco's low was to finish 6-6, while Patterson finished 5-6. This is "nowhere near"?

Since 2000, BYU has finished in the top 25 twice. TCU has finished in the top 25 five times in the same period (only missing out twice).

Don't forget, in many respects it was the terrible defense under Bronco Mendenhall that led to Crowton getting fired.

Patterson had not only a double eh win in 2004 but also barely beat Army. Not to mention that rough and tough Conference USA schedule that includes such routine powers as Memphis and Tulane.

We are comparing Head Coaches here. What Bronco did as a DC means jack shit in this equation.

I think your point about ranking demonstrates that Patterson inherited a stout program. It will also demonstrate my point, in time, when the regularity of TCU appearances in the top 25 begins to dissipate now that they are playing in a tougher conference.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I think there are many variables that define the relative ease or difficulty of attracting good players to come to a school. I think that proximity to recruits is one of the top variables. Certainly prestige and national reputation enter into the mix, but you are not really arguing that BYU's reputation, which is not much outside of Utah, Mesa, Safford, Thatcher, Moapa Valley, North Shore of Hawaii and God's Country (SE Idaho) gives BYU a significant advantage versus a school in Texas with access to hundreds of D1A caliber players right in its own backyard? While OU may get what it wants and then Texas, aTm and Tech might pick up the lions share the point is that Texas probably produces 20x the d1a talent that Utah does, and that doesn't even take into account the fact that the order of magnitude for legitimate D1A skill players is probably closer to 50X if not 100.

Further, BYU's honor code poses a significant challenge and cannot be underestimated how it impacts recruiting regardless if the coach proclaims it an advantage. It also has the negative impact of creating more reasons for attrition of a recruiting class than just the regular ones every division one a program faces.

So as my post clearly proves, it mattereth not if OU gets its pick of the litter. Those were not the FYM I was referencing. TCU has local access to hundreds of athletes that Utah doesn't provide. Further the LDS base nationwide doesn't provide. I think both schools face challenges to recruiting but I don't accept that BYU's are any easier to overcome than TCU's.

I made this point earlier. There is likely little historical variation in BYU recruiting over the past 20 years, including down years with Crowton (and BM as his luck-fated DC).

Look at TCU over the past 20 years and I bet you see a much different pattern. You see a sharp uptick since Franchione.

The BYU coach can sell BYU.

The TCU coach has to sell himself and the program.

Now whether TCU out-recruits BYU or vice versa, it's hard for me to since I don't have the data. But Jay says it is about equal, and I can believe that.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Patterson had not only a double eh win in 2004 but also barely beat Army. Not to mention that rough and tough Conference USA schedule that includes such routine powers as Memphis and Tulane.

We are comparing Head Coaches here. What Bronco did as a DC means jack shit in this equation.

I think your point about ranking demonstrates that Patterson inherited a stout program. It will also demonstrate my point, in time, when the regularity of TCU appearances in the top 25 begins to dissipate now that they are playing in a tougher conference.

BM inherited a good football team with a junior QB who would go on to be a 2nd round NFL pick. 6-6 was not a good job with that team. Or do you disagree?

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Can you have a low after only two seasons?

Yes. There is always a low. The issue is that after one season the low and high are the same. Much easier to distinguish between the two after two seasons.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Now whether TCU out-recruits BYU or vice versa, it's hard for me to since I don't have the data. But Jay says it is about equal, and I can believe that.

I was just saying that for the 2007 class. I got the data by switching to 2007 from the 2008 you linked.

My comment about them being equal is based on the recruiting base or how difficult it is to recruit. BYU has access to a large portion of a 4M U.S. LDS membership, especially Poly athletes, and white LDS OL and QB's. TCU has UT leftovers in the Dallas area, which is one of the prime recruiting markets in the nation with the abundance of skill players and the maturity of high school programs. I call it a wash.

[MikeWaters]

I will grant you that Bronco's stock has risen considerably since the 2006 TCU game. While Patterson had high hopes for this year, and has disappointed.

Bronco has a great QB going into the future which bodes well.

While Patterson has to tell recruits in DFW "sorry you can't watch games on TV" while Bronco does not have to say the same to recruits in Utah.

But you know if Hall gets hurt, the wheels come off real quick. It could get VERY ugly.

I haven't followed TCU enough to really know what's going on, though I have heard their offense stinks.