spain = dopeurs?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

To this point only Spanish cyclists have been busted which is curious. But different this year is that the cheaters (only 2 to this point) have basically been nobodies as far as the GC goes. That's a big difference from the past few years. Cycling has a long way to go to restore its credibility, but the TdF seems to have taken a step forward from years past. We'll see if anyone else gets busted this year.

I guess the timing of the Landis decision is still fresh in my mind, even though he is not racing this year. Didn't they hand down the final decision fairly recently?

I also find it hard to believe that Lance is clean. What do real cyclists such as you guys here on CG think about him? After 1 or 2 victories, did what he do cheapen the accomplishments of guys like LeMond, Indurain, Merckx, and the Frenchie (cannot remember his name but he won a bunch, it seems)?

After about his 4th win, I started to look at Lance like Barry Bonds....when he was at bat, yeah...cool to watch him hit it out of the park.....but you knew he was cheating. I just dont see how what Lance did is humanly possible without cheating.

[Coach McGuirk]

The only odd thing about this is the TDF stated before the tour started that if a rider was caught doping the team was gone. Now it has happened twice and the teams are still riding. Empty threats?

As far as spanish cycling not getting it. Until teams start to test themselves like slipstream, there will always be questions and you leave the rider up to test his own moral fortitude. If you don't know about slipstreams doping policy, their riders are tested every 14 days by the team (this does not include random wada or uci testing nor individual race testing), once they have a baseline for the riders chemical composition, it doesn't even matter if they test positive for a performance enhancer. If their levels are off, then the rider has a problem.

http://www.slipstreamsports.com/100-clean-our-mission


When teams are willing to adopt this, I believe we can be assured the riders are clean.

[MikeWaters]

I'm 90% certain that Armstrong doped.

From his teammates that doped, to his consulting and working with a notorious doper, to his employee who said she saw evidence of his doping, to his mafia tactics on the TDF rider who had ratted out some dopers--this was when the guy entered a couple breakaways, but then Lance rode out to join it until the other riders yelled at him to get out.

Does this mean Lance didn't pedal every step of the way? No. Is Lance an asshole and a jerk? Yes. Is Lance mentally tough? Yes.

I rode the Tour de Paris one year. As in Paris, TX. I was there the year during one of Lance's runs at the TDF. Guess who the guest "starter" of the rally was.

Lance's father.

Blood runs real thick in that family.

Let's not forget his cheating and running around town in Austin, his divorce, his recently cavorting with, what, a 21 year old?

Man is he a warrior. But man does he make the stomach churn.

[RC Vikings]

I blame Delgado for getting this whole thing going for Spain. Delgado taught Indurain who passed it down to Beloki and Heras. I bet if you look at their background that they grew up with less then the French, the Italians, the Americans and the Dutch and that they will still do anything it takes to make it to the top.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Look, this is your third post in a row where you are taking potshots at me personally, which is usually indicative of a crappy position from which to debate.

I get your question...you are basically wondering whether Spain is not getting the message with regards to doping. I am saying that, regardless of whether Spain is getting the message, the tour has busted 2 cyclists already this race....hence my question about whether all these guys are dopers.

Your response: you don't know cycling, i usually like your posts but now now, etc...

Again, address the doping issue as it stands. Cycling has a major perception problem with drug abuse, just like baseball. How can it be credible when such abuse is rampant?

Potshots? You thought those were potshots? Seriously? You must be more sensitive than I realized. What position do you think I am taking that you are trying to debate, anyway?

Moreover, for you to claim that I am refusing to address the issue of doping is laughable. If you really want to know my thoughts about it, it is pretty easy to find the many posts where I have discussed it in the cycling forum. In fact, my guess is that if you ask the other regulars in the cycling forum you would get a consensus that I post too much about that topic and in general. But if you think that your little joke is going to make me want to spend time educating you about the issue, you are wrong.

I realize this is n't really your fault, but I get tired of epople that have no interest in the sport or understandign of the sport and yet think they know enough to condmen it as full of dopers and cheats and so dismiss it out of hand without ever understanding what is at issue. The question of spanish doping is very intersting within the sport, especially given the background of the problem. My post was directed at those that may care about that, or at least that know about it. Your pithy and blithe reply was, frankly, just annoying and added nothing of value. Again, not your fault, and I was overly grouchy, but that's the way it is sometimes.

Does cycling have a credibility issue? Sure. I think they are unfairly painted with a broad brush, however, as the sport is also better than almost any other at testing itself. In the long run, it will survive and be fine, but maybe not in America unless we get another American winner. Now, if you really want to talk about the issue, try to learn a little more about it and bring more to the table than the same trite hoo-ha we have heard before or, at the very least, ask serious questions.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I guess the timing of the Landis decision is still fresh in my mind, even though he is not racing this year. Didn't they hand down the final decision fairly recently?

I also find it hard to believe that Lance is clean. What do real cyclists such as you guys here on CG think about him? After 1 or 2 victories, did what he do cheapen the accomplishments of guys like LeMond, Indurain, Merckx, and the Frenchie (cannot remember his name but he won a bunch, it seems)?

After about his 4th win, I started to look at Lance like Barry Bonds....when he was at bat, yeah...cool to watch him hit it out of the park.....but you knew he was cheating. I just dont see how what Lance did is humanly possible without cheating.

Landins won in '06. The final (or almost final) appeal was denied a few weeks ago.

Lance's status has been discussed at great length here. Waters does a reasonable job of pointing out some fo the issues, although some of the evidence he cites (the former employee, for example) I do nto find very credible while he misses some fo the best stuff (the guys he beat like a drum such as Ullrich and Pantani were cheaters and talented cheaters at that, or the LeMonde leaks of the re-test of his blood from 1999).

Nothing can cheapen the accomplishments of Merckx. Nothing.

Lemond was very likely clean, at least by the standards of the day. Lemond has been very crtiical of Lance and others of the more modern era. Indruain, while never testing positive, was likely a cheater, too. He came from nowhere, he was absolutely dominant for 5 years, and then, all of a sudden, he fell of the face of the earth. No proof there, however. Hinault was also probably clean by the standrds of his day (as I have pointed out before, for many years amphetamines were legal; Tony Simpson died from amphetimines while climbing Ventoux in '68 or '69).

What Lance did is humanly possible. His physiology is unique in many ways and he is incrediblky well suited to ride a bike, from his VOx rate, to the thigh/calf length ratio, to his lung capcity. Moreover, he has always been a reamkble athlete. Even so, the circumstances would certainly allow a reasonable person to conlude that he was likely cheating.

If you want more background, search throught he forum.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk

The only odd thing about this is the TDF stated before the tour started that if a rider was caught doping the team was gone. Now it has happened twice and the teams are still riding. Empty threats?

As far as spanish cycling not getting it. Until teams start to test themselves like slipstream, there will always be questions and you leave the rider up to test his own moral fortitude. If you don't know about slipstreams doping policy, their riders are tested every 14 days by the team (this does not include random wada or uci testing nor individual race testing), once they have a baseline for the riders chemical composition, it doesn't even matter if they test positive for a performance enhancer. If their levels are off, then the rider has a problem.

http://www.slipstreamsports.com/100-clean-our-mission


When teams are willing to adopt this, I believe we can be assured the riders are clean.

Slipstream is now Garmin-Chipotle. Note that VandeVelde is third in GC and is tested under this regimen. Vandevelde has never been anything more than a top flight domestique so his perfromance this year might mean a) he is cheating or b) the field isn't.

The Tour direcotrs said in response to the question you pose here that they are only going to toss the teams if their is some suggestion the teams knew about the doping. Weak.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by creekster

Potshots? You thought those were potshots? Seriously? You must be more sensitive than I realized. What position do you think I am taking that you are trying to debate, anyway?

Moreover, for you to claim that I am refusing to address the issue of doping is laughable. If you really want to know my thoughts about it, it is pretty easy to find the many posts where I have discussed it in the cycling forum. In fact, my guess is that if you ask the other regulars in the cycling forum you would get a consensus that I post too much about that topic and in general. But if you think that your little joke is going to make me want to spend time educating you about the issue, you are wrong.

I realize this is n't really your fault, but I get tired of epople that have no interest in the sport or understandign of the sport and yet think they know enough to condmen it as full of dopers and cheats and so dismiss it out of hand without ever understanding what is at issue. The question of spanish doping is very intersting within the sport, especially given the background of the problem. My post was directed at those that may care about that, or at least that know about it. Your pithy and blithe reply was, frankly, just annoying and added nothing of value. Again, not your fault, and I was overly grouchy, but that's the way it is sometimes.

Does cycling have a credibility issue? Sure. I think they are unfairly painted with a broad brush, however, as the sport is also better than almost any other at testing itself. In the long run, it will survive and be fine, but maybe not in America unless we get another American winner. Now, if you really want to talk about the issue, try to learn a little more about it and bring more to the table than the same trite hoo-ha we have heard before or, at the very least, ask serious questions.

This thread should die.

the day after you are wondering whether Spain is getting the message, an Italian gets busted and an entire team quits?

Dopers.

I didnt say your postshots hurt my feelings. I just identified them as such.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I'm 90% certain that Armstrong doped.

From his teammates that doped, to his consulting and working with a notorious doper, to his employee who said she saw evidence of his doping, to his mafia tactics on the TDF rider who had ratted out some dopers--this was when the guy entered a couple breakaways, but then Lance rode out to join it until the other riders yelled at him to get out.

Does this mean Lance didn't pedal every step of the way? No. Is Lance an asshole and a jerk? Yes. Is Lance mentally tough? Yes.

I rode the Tour de Paris one year. As in Paris, TX. I was there the year during one of Lance's runs at the TDF. Guess who the guest "starter" of the rally was.

Lance's father.

Blood runs real thick in that family.

Let's not forget his cheating and running around town in Austin, his divorce, his recently cavorting with, what, a 21 year old?

Man is he a warrior. But man does he make the stomach churn.

90% is a too high.

The story of the guy he chased down is a little more involved than that, I believe. The rider had been accused by Lance of being a cheat and so the rider caused an actiojn to be instituted against lance in the courts (their system is different than ours) and this pissed Lance off. So he then woudl not allow the break to leave until this guy was out of it. This is from memory, however, and so it could be wrong. Either way, it shows that Lance was Le Patron in the way Hinault and others had been in the past. There is no Patron this year. It also shows that Lance is a warrior,as you say. It only tangentially suggests that he was a druggie, however.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

This thread should die.

the day after you are wondering whether Spain is getting the message, an Italian gets busted and an entire team quits?

Dopers.

I didnt say your postshots hurt my feelings. I just identified them as such.

SO what position that I took do you think was so weak that I couldnt' debate about it? You know, the one I covered with potshots? You called me out on it, so tell me what it is.

Were my 'potshopts' inaccurate? Do you not admire your own work? WOuld insults or explanation make a difference to your self-admiration? Is any of that incorrect?