Intent of our hearts vs. saving ordinances - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

scottie · 11-10-2010, 11:32 PM

If God knows the intent of our hearts, why would He require saving ordinances (baptism, confirmation, temple endowment, etc.) for anything? If mortals like them for their symbolism/added commitment, that's fine, but as a requirement from on high they make no sense to me.

No need to answer with "because the prophets have told us", we already know that, just asking for your thoughts.

Archaea · 11-11-2010, 01:11 AM

Several thoughts.

First, perhaps to convince ourselves that we are worthy to accept God's grace.

Second, it was allowed to be required by God's designees but for those who can't it will be waived according to the intents of their hearts?

Third, so nobody would begrudge another for being there by doing the minimum?

Levin · 11-11-2010, 04:22 AM

I think it's mainly to hook us in, to help firm up the intent of our hearts.

Kind of like -- I want to be in shape. That's the intent of my heart. But if I don't work out, sure the intent of my heart doesn't change, but that intent is not getting any stronger by not doing anything about it.

Same with the ordinances -- by being baptised, the intent of our heart is made stronger and more enduring, and makes it more likely that the intent of our heart will be realized.

scottie · 11-11-2010, 01:00 PM

I think that if God knows the intent of our hearts, that trumps everything making SOs unnecessary from a getting-into-heaven POV; drop "saving" from the terminology.

Also, I never thought about this until just now -- if men are required to have the Melchizedek Priesthood before getting their temple endowments, why aren't priesthood ordinations part of work for the dead? Ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men) is listed as a saving ordinance:

Quote:

Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing.

lds.org

scottie · 11-11-2010, 03:13 PM

After some Googling it seems priesthood ordinations are performed in the temple.

MikeWaters · 11-11-2010, 06:17 PM

The way I would ask the question is "what is the utility in ritual?"

You don't need to believe the rituals came from God to ask this question.

The more narrowed question would be "what is the utility of sacred rituals?"

What is a ritual? I might describe it as the customary set of acts and behaviors associated with a given cultural significance. That's just off the top of my head.

In LDS theology, we have rituals that are a kind of gate--we go through them and they have a given significance. But I think you would be hard-pressed to think of a ritual that we don't do over and over throughout our lives if we stay involved with the church. Even if it is not me as the receiver or giver of the ritual. For example, baptism. You are baptized. Your children and grandchildren are baptized. But you attend numerous other baptisms as well. Not to mention temple baptisms. Baby blessings are witnessed so often, as to have a kind of customary diction attached to them. Why do we repeat these things over and over? Who likes to repeat things over and over?

I do. I'm a fair basketball player. Nothing special. But to get to the level I am at, required years and years of practice. Ritual. Shooting, passing, dribbling, court IQ. Free throws. 3-pointers. Jump shots. Body control around the basket. Etc. The more I adhere to the ritual, the fundamentals, the better I am. I think Kevin Durrant is an interesting case in point. Here is someone, that instead of playing tons of pickup basketball, focused on the fundamentals of the game to a level that most of us couldn't imagine. Drill after drill, hour after hour.

So why do we do these religious rituals time and again? Good question. You should ask yourself that the next time you are doing one.

ute4ever · 11-12-2010, 09:24 PM

An action speaks a thousand words. It's one thing to sit back in a recliner with a chilled Yoo-Hoo and think, "I'm so happy, I sure love everyone and everything," and it's another to get off of your butt and serve your fellow man.

A person may decide that he loves Christ and wants to do what is right. But that passing thought in and of itself does not include the same depth as a baptism, where an individual has continually sought faith, repentance, met with priesthood leaders, attended meetings, been found worthy, and fulfilled the public rite of passage....and then continued to honor that baptism week after week by attending meetings, reaching out to others, sharing his faith with others, striving to be worthy to take the sacrament, ongoing repentance with his covenants in mind, etc.

The physical act does more to show God our sincerity than a person who utters a single acknowledgement at one point in time.

11-10-2010, 11:32 PM	#1
scottie Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 525	Intent of our hearts vs. saving ordinances If God knows the intent of our hearts, why would He require saving ordinances (baptism, confirmation, temple endowment, etc.) for anything? If mortals like them for their symbolism/added commitment, that's fine, but as a requirement from on high they make no sense to me. No need to answer with "because the prophets have told us", we already know that, just asking for your thoughts.

11-11-2010, 01:11 AM	#2
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	Several thoughts. First, perhaps to convince ourselves that we are worthy to accept God's grace. Second, it was allowed to be required by God's designees but for those who can't it will be waived according to the intents of their hearts? Third, so nobody would begrudge another for being there by doing the minimum? __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

11-11-2010, 04:22 AM	#3
Levin Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,484	I think it's mainly to hook us in, to help firm up the intent of our hearts. Kind of like -- I want to be in shape. That's the intent of my heart. But if I don't work out, sure the intent of my heart doesn't change, but that intent is not getting any stronger by not doing anything about it. Same with the ordinances -- by being baptised, the intent of our heart is made stronger and more enduring, and makes it more likely that the intent of our heart will be realized. __________________ "Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12

11-11-2010, 03:13 PM	#5
scottie Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 525	After some Googling it seems priesthood ordinations are performed in the temple.

11-11-2010, 06:17 PM	#6
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	The way I would ask the question is "what is the utility in ritual?" You don't need to believe the rituals came from God to ask this question. The more narrowed question would be "what is the utility of sacred rituals?" What is a ritual? I might describe it as the customary set of acts and behaviors associated with a given cultural significance. That's just off the top of my head. In LDS theology, we have rituals that are a kind of gate--we go through them and they have a given significance. But I think you would be hard-pressed to think of a ritual that we don't do over and over throughout our lives if we stay involved with the church. Even if it is not me as the receiver or giver of the ritual. For example, baptism. You are baptized. Your children and grandchildren are baptized. But you attend numerous other baptisms as well. Not to mention temple baptisms. Baby blessings are witnessed so often, as to have a kind of customary diction attached to them. Why do we repeat these things over and over? Who likes to repeat things over and over? I do. I'm a fair basketball player. Nothing special. But to get to the level I am at, required years and years of practice. Ritual. Shooting, passing, dribbling, court IQ. Free throws. 3-pointers. Jump shots. Body control around the basket. Etc. The more I adhere to the ritual, the fundamentals, the better I am. I think Kevin Durrant is an interesting case in point. Here is someone, that instead of playing tons of pickup basketball, focused on the fundamentals of the game to a level that most of us couldn't imagine. Drill after drill, hour after hour. So why do we do these religious rituals time and again? Good question. You should ask yourself that the next time you are doing one.

11-12-2010, 09:24 PM	#7
ute4ever I must not tell lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,103	An action speaks a thousand words. It's one thing to sit back in a recliner with a chilled Yoo-Hoo and think, "I'm so happy, I sure love everyone and everything," and it's another to get off of your butt and serve your fellow man. A person may decide that he loves Christ and wants to do what is right. But that passing thought in and of itself does not include the same depth as a baptism, where an individual has continually sought faith, repentance, met with priesthood leaders, attended meetings, been found worthy, and fulfilled the public rite of passage....and then continued to honor that baptism week after week by attending meetings, reaching out to others, sharing his faith with others, striving to be worthy to take the sacrament, ongoing repentance with his covenants in mind, etc. The physical act does more to show God our sincerity than a person who utters a single acknowledgement at one point in time.