Miracles, proof of what?

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by woot

And that reason is that such things are impossible without the suspension of physical laws, and are therefore irrational to believe in. There has never been a miracle witnessed by anyone with the capacity to judge its veracity. How convenient.

Miracles are probably a topic worthy of a different thread. My body of work on this bord is quite limited but most people here would not put me into the "mullah" camp. In fact, I have struggled as of late reconciling my faith in Joseph's call with what we know about his personal history, but that is off the topic.

You say there has never been a miracle witnessed by anyone with the capacity to judge its veracity. Is a scientist the only type of person that is able to judge a miracle's veracity? How about a doctor or a paramedic? I have 2 personal examples of miracles in my life. I hesitate to share them because it is likely my experiences may be judged by those that did did not experience them as being SoonerCougarish.

With that being said, I will share one example. 15 years ago (I was 19 at the time and had just submitted my missionary papers) while on vacation visiting a childhood friend in western Nebraska, I was riding in the passenger seat of a Jeep Wrangler without its doors and top. I was not wearing a seat belt. My friend who was driving, was distracted by some girls that we knew who were following behind us in a convertable. We were horsing around with the girls on the road which caused my buddy to lose control of the car and hit a telephone pole going 40mph.

My friend, the driver, was thrown out of the car through the space where his door would have been. I was thrown through the windshield with my torso resting on the hood of the Jeep. I was concious the entire time and sustained only a minor scratch on my forehead. My friend had massive head trauma which required a 911 call for an ambulence. The girls were too busy being nervous wrecks (pun intended but they were freaking out) and it was before cell phones so I pulled myself the rest of the way through the windshield and ran to the nearest house about 100 yards away. I called the ambulence which arrived fairly quickly.

After attending to my friend, a paramedic asked where the person was that hit the windshield? I replied I was that person. At that point all the medical folks freaked out and rushed to attend to me. They worried about internal bleeding and trauma to the brain and the like. To make a long story short there paramedics freaked out but I was unhurt.

One paramedic who claimed he had 15 years of experience said to me it was miraculous and that "in all of his 15 years of experience he had seen nothing like it." I would have just chalked it up to luck, but my mom is very religious and reminds me all the time how we had a family prayer before I left that no physical harm would come to me while on my vacation (she brings up this experience even more now that she knows my LDS faith is wavering)

Anyway, there are times when things happen for which there is no explanation. Sure that paramedic was not an expert in physics, nor was he an engineer that designed windshields. However, he had witnessed countless accidents over 15 years and his shock over lack of injuries is not discounted with a wave of the hand. Could it be luck? maybe. Could it be divine protection? Who knows? I know that I don't know for sure either way, but "miracles" that defy explanation do happen and people who are somewhat qualified do observe them all the time.

The other experienceI referenced involves my sister and her heart surgeon but I will save that one for another day.

[cougjunkie]

Originally Posted by Flystripper

Miracles are probably a topic worthy of a different thread. My body of work on this bord is quite limited but most people here would not put me into the "mullah" camp. In fact, I have struggled as of late reconciling my faith in Joseph's call with what we know about his personal history, but that is off the topic.

You say there has never been a miracle witnessed by anyone with the capacity to judge its veracity. Is a scientist the only type of person that is able to judge a miracle's veracity? How about a doctor or a paramedic? I have 2 personal examples of miracles in my life. I hesitate to share them because it is likely my experiences may be judged by those that did did not experience them as being SoonerCougarish.

With that being said, I will share one example. 15 years ago (I was 19 at the time and had just submitted my missionary papers) while on vacation visiting a childhood friend in western Nebraska, I was riding in the passenger seat of a Jeep Wrangler without its doors and top. I was not wearing a seat belt. My friend who was driving, was distracted by some girls that we knew who were following behind us in a convertable. We were horsing around with the girls on the road which caused my buddy to lose control of the car and hit a telephone pole going 40mph.

My friend, the driver, was thrown out of the car through the space where his door would have been. I was thrown through the windshield with my torso resting on the hood of the Jeep. I was concious the entire time and sustained only a minor scratch on my forehead. My friend had massive head trauma which required a 911 call for an ambulence. The girls were too busy being nervous wrecks (pun intended but they were freaking out) and it was before cell phones so I pulled myself the rest of the way through the windshield and ran to the nearest house about 100 yards away. I called the ambulence which arrived fairly quickly.

After attending to my friend, a paramedic asked where the person was that hit the windshield? I replied I was that person. At that point all the medical folks freaked out and rushed to attend to me. They worried about internal bleeding and trauma to the brain and the like. To make a long story short there paramedics freaked out but I was unhurt.

One paramedic who claimed he had 15 years of experience said to me it was miraculous and that "in all of his 15 years of experience he had seen nothing like it." I would have just chalked it up to luck, but my mom is very religious and reminds me all the time how we had a family prayer before I left that no physical harm would come to me while on my vacation (she brings up this experience even more now that she knows my LDS faith is wavering)

Anyway, there are times when things happen for which there is no explanation. Sure that paramedic was not an expert in physics, nor was he an engineer that designed windshields. However, he had witnessed countless accidents over 15 years and his shock over lack of injuries is not discounted with a wave of the hand. Could it be luck? maybe. Could it be divine protection? Who knows? I know that I don't know for sure either way, but "miracles" that defy explanation do happen and people who are somewhat qualified do observe them all the time.

The other experienceI referenced involves my sister and her heart surgeon but I will save that one for another day.

Thanks for sharing that.

[woot]

Originally Posted by Flystripper

Miracles are probably a topic worthy of a different thread. My body of work on this bord is quite limited but most people here would not put me into the "mullah" camp. In fact, I have struggled as of late reconciling my faith in Joseph's call with what we know about his personal history, but that is off the topic.

You say there has never been a miracle witnessed by anyone with the capacity to judge its veracity. Is a scientist the only type of person that is able to judge a miracle's veracity? How about a doctor or a paramedic? I have 2 personal examples of miracles in my life. I hesitate to share them because it is likely my experiences may be judged by those that did did not experience them as being SoonerCougarish.

With that being said, I will share one example. 15 years ago (I was 19 at the time and had just submitted my missionary papers) while on vacation visiting a childhood friend in western Nebraska, I was riding in the passenger seat of a Jeep Wrangler without its doors and top. I was not wearing a seat belt. My friend who was driving, was distracted by some girls that we knew who were following behind us in a convertable. We were horsing around with the girls on the road which caused my buddy to lose control of the car and hit a telephone pole going 40mph.

My friend, the driver, was thrown out of the car through the space where his door would have been. I was thrown through the windshield with my torso resting on the hood of the Jeep. I was concious the entire time and sustained only a minor scratch on my forehead. My friend had massive head trauma which required a 911 call for an ambulence. The girls were too busy being nervous wrecks (pun intended but they were freaking out) and it was before cell phones so I pulled myself the rest of the way through the windshield and ran to the nearest house about 100 yards away. I called the ambulence which arrived fairly quickly.

After attending to my friend, a paramedic asked where the person was that hit the windshield? I replied I was that person. At that point all the medical folks freaked out and rushed to attend to me. They worried about internal bleeding and trauma to the brain and the like. To make a long story short there paramedics freaked out but I was unhurt.

One paramedic who claimed he had 15 years of experience said to me it was miraculous and that "in all of his 15 years of experience he had seen nothing like it." I would have just chalked it up to luck, but my mom is very religious and reminds me all the time how we had a family prayer before I left that no physical harm would come to me while on my vacation (she brings up this experience even more now that she knows my LDS faith is wavering)

Anyway, there are times when things happen for which there is no explanation. Sure that paramedic was not an expert in physics, nor was he an engineer that designed windshields. However, he had witnessed countless accidents over 15 years and his shock over lack of injuries is not discounted with a wave of the hand. Could it be luck? maybe. Could it be divine protection? Who knows? I know that I don't know for sure either way, but "miracles" that defy explanation do happen and people who are somewhat qualified do observe them all the time.

The other experienceI referenced involves my sister and her heart surgeon but I will save that one for another day.

I sympathize with your situation and am grateful that you all seem to have made it through the experience more or less intact, but even in situations in which the vast majority, say 99% even, of people would likely have been seriously injured, it's just simple statistics that 1% of the people will make it through unscathed. In your situation, it might have been 50%, and the paramedic may have "lucked" into seeing only the bad side of that coin flip in his/her years of experience, or your situation may have been more like 99.99% bad, but even so, it's simple statistics that unless your event carried with it a 100% rate of serious injury, that some people will make it through just fine. That doesn't mean that the small percentage that does make it through were divinely protected.

This brings up all sorts of other issues though. If God is responsible when someone comes out of car accident unhurt, why is he not responsible when someone dies in the same car accident? Why do we give him credit for only the good things? I know that the answer will involve not being able to understand God's will, but think about this: Isn't what we see in these situations exactly what we would expect to see from simple probability? Isn't the entire world what we would expect if there were no divine agent involving itself in our lives? If no, how so? Imagine a world without God, and describe it. How is it different?

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by woot

I sympathize with your situation and am grateful that you all seem to have made it through the experience more or less intact, but even in situations in which the vast majority, say 99% even, of people would likely have been seriously injured, it's just simple statistics that 1% of the people will make it through unscathed. In your situation, it might have been 50%, and the paramedic may have "lucked" into seeing only the bad side of that coin flip in his/her years of experience, or your situation may have been more like 99.99% bad, but even so, it's simple statistics that unless your event carried with it a 100% rate of serious injury, that some people will make it through just fine. That doesn't mean that the small percentage that does make it through were divinely protected.

This brings up all sorts of other issues though. If God is responsible when someone comes out of car accident unhurt, why is he not responsible when someone dies in the same car accident? Why do we give him credit for only the good things? I know that the answer will involve not being able to understand God's will, but think about this: Isn't what we see in these situations exactly what we would expect to see from simple probability? Isn't the entire world what we would expect if there were no divine agent involving itself in our lives? If no, how so? Imagine a world without God, and describe it. How is it different?

Who ever said that God isn't responsible for someone dying in a car accident? I have a distant cousin who was killed in a car accident about 30 years ago. Her family has always believed that God took her from this earth via the accident in order to use her talent of music in the next life. (She was a true musical genius and prodigy.)

I believe God's will is to allow things to happen on their own. He could intervene if he so chooses, but he allows us to create our own destiny, for lack of a better term. We're just unable to understand why things happen as they do in life.

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by woot

I sympathize with your situation and am grateful that you all seem to have made it through the experience more or less intact, but even in situations in which the vast majority, say 99% even, of people would likely have been seriously injured, it's just simple statistics that 1% of the people will make it through unscathed. In your situation, it might have been 50%, and the paramedic may have "lucked" into seeing only the bad side of that coin flip in his/her years of experience, or your situation may have been more like 99.99% bad, but even so, it's simple statistics that unless your event carried with it a 100% rate of serious injury, that some people will make it through just fine. That doesn't mean that the small percentage that does make it through were divinely protected.

This brings up all sorts of other issues though. If God is responsible when someone comes out of car accident unhurt, why is he not responsible when someone dies in the same car accident? Why do we give him credit for only the good things? I know that the answer will involve not being able to understand God's will, but think about this: Isn't what we see in these situations exactly what we would expect to see from simple probability? Isn't the entire world what we would expect if there were no divine agent involving itself in our lives? If no, how so? Imagine a world without God, and describe it. How is it different?

I too am grateful for my survival. Was it luck or statistical probability as you like to put it? I have no idea. I admit that it is possible that it was merely luck and that on a roll of a hypothetical 1000 sided dice I had a perfect roll. I am not sure if God played a part in it. My mom firmly believes it was divine protection and for her it is a faith affirming experience. I must admit at times for me, the experience has been quite faith promoting.

I am honest enough to admit that luck is a possible explanation, but I am also honest enough to admit that maybe it was divine protection. The point is that we don't know for sure, and that is why faith is appropriate in this instance. Either you have faith and you see the hand of God or you do not have it and you see statistical probabilities or improbabilities as it were.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by Flystripper

I too am grateful for my survival. Was it luck or statistical probability as you like to put it? I have no idea. I admit that it is possible that it was merely luck and that on a roll of a hypothetical 1000 sided dice I had a perfect roll. I am not sure if God played a part in it. My mom firmly believes it was divine protection and for her it is a faith affirming experience. I must admit at times for me, the experience has been quite faith promoting.

I am honest enough to admit that luck is a possible explanation, but I am also honest enough to admit that maybe it was divine protection. The point is that we don't know for sure, and that is why faith is appropriate in this instance. Either you have faith and you see the hand of God or you do not have it and you see statistical probabilities or improbabilities as it were.

Not to lessen your experience but growing up I saw a drunk Indian (feathers not dots) running from the cops hit a concrete column going at least 50mph. He hit the column dead center sat stunned for a minute or so opened the door and walked out. He didn't have a scratch on him. I thought to myself that it was a miracle and that God must love drunks cause they always seem to walk away from the horrific accidents they cause.

Either way your experience doesn't mean the mormon church is true. It means that God anwsers prayers, mormon and non-mormon just the same.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

Either way your experience doesn't mean the mormon church is true. It means that God anwsers prayers, mormon and non-mormon just the same.

He never said it meant the Mormon church was true. He used it as an example of a possible miracle.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

And I think we are seeing why he was reluctant to share such a story.

And my past reluctance to share "faith promoting" stories and details of my Patriarchal Blessing has oncd again been justified.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

And I think we are seeing why he was reluctant to share such a story.

It was a good story and I am sure a lot of us enjoyed it.

The fact that some may not embrace a story as much as others doesn't mean one should be reluctant to share it.

I don't think you measure these things based on the number pro or con.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

And my past reluctance to share "faith promoting" stories and details of my Patriarchal Blessing has oncd again been justified.

How is that?

Every single thing I do and say in this world, I don't expect that every single person who hears it will agree with me.