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Old 11-09-2015, 04:11 PM   #41
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The Boy Scout press release actually bothered me more. Not because it was more important. But because I perceived it as actually intending to deceive and lie. The idea that an apostle or apostles penned it gave me the exact opposite of comfort.

And to see Christofferson now sitting in that chair explaining why this is all about love. I couldn't finish watching.

And now all these Mormons on social media extolling this.

Does this feel more like Jesus or feel more like the pharisees? Who would more concerned about implications for "child of record" in the databases?

The other part that really bothers me is the idea that all the FP and the Q12 were unanimous in backing this. I can certainly accept that a majority would back it. But there wasn't one person who opposed it? Including Christofferson. Including Uchtdorf.

If I were a Bishop, could I actually implement this practice? Could I look a little child in the eye and tell her that her baptism has now been canceled. If the answer is "no" then maybe I shouldn't be a bishop, and maybe I shouldn't have a TR, and maybe I shouldn't have a calling at all. Maybe I don't belong.

Small tent Mormonism. Shrinking the stakes of zion.

My stake presidency said that what was decided is correct, because the Brethren could never lead us astray. The Lord would not allow it. Infallible.

Of course, we have to ignore all the times they were wrong in the past and have admitted they were wrong. Ignore what we said, we spoke with lesser light. Etc.

These are trying times.
This is the disadvantage of old men leading the Church. They are insensitive to the younger generations and to those not of their ilk.
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Old 11-09-2015, 07:18 PM   #42
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I'm seeing a lot of reference to the sorts of things Ute4ever mentioned or implied. An Old Testament God. An angry God. A God who chooses whom he loves. Quotes from GA that God's love is not unconditional. God loves some of his children but not all. From people who support the decision to ban the children of gays.

This is the competing vision of Mormonism. Against the version that ponders a God who weeps.

What a mess.

The FP and Q12 have much more data in hand than any of us. They have statistics that we are not privy to. I'm guessing many of the numbers look bad. And perhaps this has contributed to a circle-the-wagons mindset.

"Because the world is evil and the members are succumbing to the world."

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Old 11-09-2015, 09:46 PM   #43
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It was Orson Hyde who prophesied that a real test would come in the last days and half of church members would fall away, and Presidents Young, Kimball, Benson and Hinckley quoted it. I suppose this may be it. Likewise, many early church members struggled with the polygamy issue, refusing to participate. And we will prove them herewith to see if they do all things The Lord commands them. The Lord tried and tried Abraham again and again, and Joseph in Egypt, and Moses, and Paul, and Joseph Smith, and so many others. It's unfortunate that over recent decades, the church went from being peculiar, to having missionaries who will baptize anyone who wants a free meal, and look what we have now. Prophets have said again and again to feast upon the scriptures, read daily, attend the temple as often as you can, but instead the members picked those things apart.

No wonder over the past three years, the brethren placed such heavy emphasis on following the prophet. Not following celebrities on Twitter to see what the youth like.
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:58 PM   #44
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I'm seeing a lot of reference to the sorts of things Ute4ever mentioned or implied. An Old Testament God. An angry God. A God who chooses whom he loves. Quotes from GA that God's love is not unconditional. God loves some of his children but not all. From people who support the decision to ban the children of gays.

This is the competing vision of Mormonism. Against the version that ponders a God who weeps.

What a mess.

The FP and Q12 have much more data in hand than any of us. They have statistics that we are not privy to. I'm guessing many of the numbers look bad. And perhaps this has contributed to a circle-the-wagons mindset.

"Because the world is evil and the members are succumbing to the world."

I believe it is a function of having a bunch like-minded businessmen who are mostly very old and not familiar with even the sentiments of their own flock. They don't read or understand sociology and simply implement business strategies.

We exclude the voices of fifty percent of the population by excluding women. We next exclude all but the white race in making policy decisions. And finally, we only involved the very old and those from Utah in most decisions. Is it any surprise we have nothing but weird, insular decisions?
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Old 11-09-2015, 10:09 PM   #45
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It was Orson Hyde who prophesied that a real test would come in the last days and half of church members would fall away, and Presidents Young, Kimball, Benson and Hinckley quoted it. I suppose this may be it. Likewise, many early church members struggled with the polygamy issue, refusing to participate. And we will prove them herewith to see if they do all things The Lord commands them. The Lord tried and tried Abraham again and again, and Joseph in Egypt, and Moses, and Paul, and Joseph Smith, and so many others. It's unfortunate that over recent decades, the church went from being peculiar, to having missionaries who will baptize anyone who wants a free meal, and look what we have now. Prophets have said again and again to feast upon the scriptures, read daily, attend the temple as often as you can, but instead the members picked those things apart.

No wonder over the past three years, the brethren placed such heavy emphasis on following the prophet. Not following celebrities on Twitter to see what the youth like.
I've got bad news for you. Half of the members have already fallen away. There's >400 members in my ward boundaries and about 150 who attend. This is typical.

Oh, you mean that half of the currently active members will fall away. Which means that there will be less than 25% of the members left. Perhaps better yet, it can be squeezed down to 144,000 who can pack in and around Jackson County reading the latest Julie Rowe conspiracy theories on their smart phones.
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Old 11-09-2015, 10:12 PM   #46
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I've got bad news for you. Half of the members have already fallen away. There's >400 members in my ward boundaries and about 150 who attend. This is typical.

Oh, you mean that half of the currently active members will fall away. Which means that there will be less than 25% of the members left. Perhaps better yet, it can be squeezed down to 144,000 who can pack in and around Jackson County reading the latest Julie Rowe conspiracy theories on their smart phones.
God does not want any crowds in the celestial kingdom only those few who are misogynistic and homophobic. God only loves the angry and hateful who cry for vengeance in his name.
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Old 11-10-2015, 01:05 AM   #47
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It's unfortunate that over recent decades, the church went from being peculiar, to having missionaries who will baptize anyone who wants a free meal, and look what we have now.
Ok, now you're disagreeing with the prophets. It's not like thousands of faithful missionaries were out there in Chile and the Philippines in the 1980s going against the training and instruction they got from their priesthood leaders by baptizing "too many." I was taught to extend the invitation to be baptized during the second discussion. It was right there in the instructions to the missionary within the discussions, and also taught at the MTC. If that was too soon for someone to join, somehow I think the Lord takes that into account. From what I can tell, the folks who are giving the church the most trouble over the internet these days are hardly coming from those who joined the church somewhere in the third world and just stopped showing up on Sunday. They come almost exclusively from families of the most rigid, unbending, black and white clique of mormons who care more about preserving a club that shares their political, social, ethnic backgrounds and who seem to care more about the meetings and organizational clutter mormonism than the true Gospel of Christ.

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Old 11-10-2015, 01:40 AM   #48
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Christofferson's gay brother. Formerly excommunicated. Now rebaptized. http://www.wheatandtares.org/19470/t...on-transcript/
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Old 11-10-2015, 01:56 AM   #49
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I must say I'm surprised by the whole lot of you. At first I thought you were trolling, but now it's apparent that you truly never knew the gospel's stance on homosexuality.

During all these years, while you've been starting threads about physical evidences of the Book of Mormon, and theological studies, and the life of Joseph Smith, did you seriously never even bother to read the actual scriptures that you've been proving authentic? What have you been doing during your Sunday meetings? And your Monday evenings? And your ward temple nights?

When the prophets said the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon remains sealed because the members don't even utilize the unsealed portion, they weren't kidding.
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:15 AM   #50
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Waters, I just remembered something Eyring said in one of his talks, that the Brethren often disagree and have lively discussions but that ultimately they don't take action unless they're unanimous. He referenced some decision where they couldn't reach unanimity and pushed the issue off for further discussion until there could be. I hate to say it, but this decision was likely unanimous. The old "cannot look upon sin with any degree of allowance" angle won. You saw that and heard that in Christofferson's statement (what a horribly edited video, by the way. Amateur hour and hastily put together). Did nobody raise the teachings of the savior regarding children?

I repeat, the comet has struck. The dinosaurs are on their way out. With social media and the Internet, the death will be accelerated. If the Internet were around in the 70s during the Priesthood ban, we'd all be Episcopalians or Catholic.

I'm being dramatic but this hurts. This is probably the worst thing the church could have done. Punishing children because they don't want members to see gay families acting as families. But we see it all the time anyway. Monson said Prop 8 was the church's Gettysburg. This is the Church burning down Atlanta before Sherman can even get to it.
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