Church makes gays and their children apostates

[Levin]

It will be interesting what the "clarification" will be. Unless it's a wholesale roll back, I don't see it getting any better. "If your dad and mom are divorced and daddy lives with his boyfriend and you live with your mom, THEN you can still get baptized. But if you live with your dad every other weekend, and on Wednesdays, then you cannot get baptized." Etc. More line drawing will just appear more arbitrary and capricious.

And we'll know that whatever "clarification" there is will have the imprimatur of the First Presidency and full Quorum of the 12. This has been too big of a meteor strike not to get their full attention and agreement. So whatever comes down the pike will have the approval of Uchtdorf and Holland, our twin hopes for reason and judgment and wisdom and generosity in this matter.

I'm nervous.

[Levin]

The "clarification" that is coming also shows that it's still amateur hour at the COB. The incoherent and disastrous PR statement re the scouting change: "we're on vacation and this is contrary to our doctrine anyway." And then how this was exposed and it's put into a manual only for SP's and Bishops when it affects the whole Church to its core.

I love President Monson, but this has been my frustration with him as President: he doesn't seem to be talking to us TODAY. Any of his talks could have been from the 1880s, 1920s, 1960s, or 1990s. They teach wonderful principles, but they are at a level of generality that is not rooted in specific issues the membership and Church as a whole are facing. It is something I really appreciated about President Hinckley -- he would talk to us about issues we were facing. I remember his talk, "What are people asking about us?" and then he gave specific answers to the questions. Something like that from TSM would be appreciated.

[Levin]

Why in the hell is Dehlin releasing news about the Church? Meaning, that's fully within Dehlin's right to do that. But why in the hell isn't the CHURCH speaking for itself? Why doesn't the Church get out in front of these things instead of always being caught behind the 8 ball. Instead, national newspapers have to quote people like Dehlin.

Amateur hour.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...mepage%2Fstory

[ChinoCoug]

Dehlin is an attention whore.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

Dehlin is an attention whore.

That's why the Church should get some professionals so that he doesn't get to lead on all these issues. It's ridiculous that he's the only source of information and the Church's PR is "no comment"

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Levin

That's why the Church should get some professionals so that he doesn't get to lead on all these issues. It's ridiculous that he's the only source of information and the Church's PR is "no comment"

Amateur hour.

If this were a for-profit corporation, you would have shareholder-derivative suits for mismanagement. There would be a vote and the board of directors would be ousted. New levels of incompetency in terms of PR have been evinced ever since Prop 8.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Levin

That's why the Church should get some professionals so that he doesn't get to lead on all these issues. It's ridiculous that he's the only source of information and the Church's PR is "no comment"

I think the article you just posted was actually pretty fair. Credit the writer for getting some sources other than Dehlin to paint a more complete picture of the church regarding gay issues. But I agree it feels disturbing that ex-members get to be the ones breaking news. Something isn't working right. Also, someone with information has to be feeding it to him secretly, which is also a little disturbing.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by BlueK

I think the article you just posted was actually pretty fair. Credit the writer for getting some sources other than Dehlin to paint a more complete picture of the church regarding gay issues. But I agree it feels disturbing that ex-members get to be the ones breaking news. Something isn't working right. Also, someone with information has to be feeding it to him secretly, which is also a little disturbing.

He was buddy-buddy with Oaks before he left. Not surprised at all with his connections.

[ChinoCoug]

Plus there are a lot of active wolves like his former self.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Levin

The "clarification" that is coming also shows that it's still amateur hour at the COB. The incoherent and disastrous PR statement re the scouting change: "we're on vacation and this is contrary to our doctrine anyway." And then how this was exposed and it's put into a manual only for SP's and Bishops when it affects the whole Church to its core.

I love President Monson, but this has been my frustration with him as President: he doesn't seem to be talking to us TODAY. Any of his talks could have been from the 1880s, 1920s, 1960s, or 1990s. They teach wonderful principles, but they are at a level of generality that is not rooted in specific issues the membership and Church as a whole are facing. It is something I really appreciated about President Hinckley -- he would talk to us about issues we were facing. I remember his talk, "What are people asking about us?" and then he gave specific answers to the questions. Something like that from TSM would be appreciated.

President Monson seems to be struggling with age, as many in his position have before him. I love him too, but I see him as just trying to do the best he can. The extreme "mullahs" I think do the church a disservice by basically falsely preaching the idea that even minor human mistakes or misjudgments by church leaders are essentially impossible. My understanding of agency leads me to believe that the Lord is ultimately in control and but he allows his servants to also be human and learn from mistakes just like everyone else. They receive revelation, but as President Hinckley once said, it comes to him most of the time in the same way it comes to any other member who seeks it. And we all know that the Lord doesn't dictate every action in detail to us. If he did it would negate the whole purpose of this mortal existence.

So I try to be patient and give my leaders my support and the benefit of the doubt just like I would hope others would do for me. I've seen numerous policies come and go in my 4+ decades of life. Not all of them make sense. And often they change. Years ago I once had to be released as a temple worker because I hit my 30th birthday and still wasn't married. It was just the policy that no one really knows why is there. Yet as soon as the temple president told me I was released he told me he really wanted me to keep coming to serve as a "volunteer" instead which didn't have the same age restriction. So the net effect was almost nothing. I kept going but just couldn't officiate in a few things I could before. Policies on top of other policies.

My theory is that President Monson is probably not going to be with us all that much longer but President Nelson is getting some time right now to be ready. We'll see. President Nelson is actually older than President Monson but it seems his health is better right now.