I want to challenge Snipe

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I am probably the only one here who subscribes to the New Yorker and I regularly post links to it. It actually made me think maybe I do occasionally make some minor impression here when I saw Mike posting a link by Seymore Hersh in the New Yorker.

Regularly publishing links doesn't mean you read them.

I refuse to pay for subscriptions and believe in open source. My work should show I'll read almost anything regardless of source. However, I fail to accept everything lock, stock and barrel regardless of source.

[MikeWaters]

All-American, there are plenty of Americans (like JL) that are interested in preserving *Americans*, and not necessarily American ideals.

You and I are the idealists who would fight to keep America free of despotism.

It's the terrorists now. It's me and you next.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It's the terrorists now. It's me and you next.

Link?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by All-American

First of all, false dichotomy. Your argument depends a relationship that does not of necessity exist: that is, that waterboarding a known terrorist WILL result in lives being saved, and to not waterboard is to place your children on the altars of Moloch.

Second, waterboarding known terrorists will engender the kind of feelings that will create more known terrorists.

Third, many of the prisoners in Gitmo and Abu Gharib are not exactly "known" terrorists.

But beyond all those points, I still say that if we cannot protect this country in a way that preserves the ideals upon which the nation is founded, we will not have a country worth protecting. I would hope of myself that if, pressed by the crisis, I would be willing to give up my life that this nation might not only live, but be worth living in.

Again I don't condone inhumane treatment by our country, but I'm also a pragmatist and realize that ivory tower sentiments don't often cut it on the ground.

For the most part the ivory tower sentiments do not arise from anybody who has every set foot as a soldier or foreign agent abroad.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Link?

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Archaea

For the most part the ivory tower sentiments do not arise from anybody who has every set foot as a soldier or foreign agent abroad.

You are saying that soldiers and agents haven't opposed torture?

I know you don't mean this. Because it's ridiculous.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

All-American, there are plenty of Americans (like JL) that are interested in preserving *Americans*, and not necessarily American ideals.

You and I are the idealists who would fight to keep America free of despotism.

It's the terrorists now. It's me and you next.

Interestingly enough, that's the same argument I would use to support my position. Observe:

There are plenty of Americans that are interested in preserving *Americans* [our soldiers in Iraq], and not necessarily American ideals [freedom of the Iraqi people].

You and I are the idealists who would fight to keep America free of despotism [free of terrorist attacks].

It's the terrorists [in Iraq] now, so that it won't be me and you next [in America].

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Again I don't condone inhumane treatment by our country, but I'm also a pragmatist and realize that ivory tower sentiments don't often cut it on the ground.

For the most part the ivory tower sentiments do not arise from anybody who has every set foot as a soldier or foreign agent abroad.

I realize that. It is the great weakness in my argument-- the fact that I'm all talk. I'm stating an ideal that I can only hope I would be able to aspire to if the times demanded it.

But then again, "all men are created equal" was an unattainable ideal, too.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I had New Yorker subscription for years, but I let it lapse.

Like CG New Yorker is non-profit. It needs your support.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You are saying that soldiers and agents haven't opposed torture?

I know you don't mean this. Because it's ridiculous.

No, he's just wondering why I'm so willing to sacrifice other people's lives for my rights. And he's absolutely right.