Andew Sullivan on Bush's similarties to Nazis and others

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Tex

I think it's equally nutty for the liberal wing of America to run passionately into the arms of the Nazi regime every time they hear of a terrorist getting an untreated hangnail while in prison.

And if that's too hyperbolic for you, welcome to just about every Nazi-comparison I've ever heard.

It's almost like you've never heard of Godwin's Law before.

Godwin's law does not apply here. Even you must admit that the Gestapo memo bears an uncanny resemblance to Bush's policy on turture. It's almost like it inspired the Bushies. Moreover, the fact is the Nazi regime is a useful touchstoen always to keep in mind for a number of reasons:

First, Hitler was elected by a popular vote and began as the head of a free republican state; he dismantled it incrementally from within over a period of time.

Second, 1930's Germany was probably the most educated and cultured--you could say "civilized"--country in the world.

These are among the reasons why Germany horribly facinates beyond Stalinist Russia, which was equally murderous and oppressive. Russia has never had republican government, and most of its population was illiterate and backward. Stalin himself was a rube. But Germany was a lot like us.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I am well aware of Godwin's Law. And it doesn't surprise me that you would be a fan of it. It's perfectly binary.

Mmm, peanuts.

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Godwin's law does not apply here. Even you must admit that the Gestapo memo bears an uncanny resemblance to Bush's policy on turture. It's almost like it inspired the Bushies. Moreover, the fact is the Nazi regime is a useful touchstoen always to keep in mind for a number of reasons:

First, Hitler was elected by a popular vote and began as the head of a free republican state; he dismantled it incrementally from within over a period of time.

Second, 1930's Germany was probably the most educated and cultured--you could say "civilized"--country in the world.

These are among the reasons why Germany horribly facinates beyond Stalinist Russia, which was equally murderous and oppressive. Russia has never had republican government, and most of its population was illiterate and backward. Stalin himself was a rube. But Germany was a lot like us.

I hear Hitler fancied HDTV as well, illustrating just one more way that he and I are so much alike.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Tex

Mmm, peanuts.

Copout.

[BYU71]

time understanding each others views. Seattle I know you are sincere when you say the "torture" policy reminds you of Gestapo tactics. I am sincere in saying I can't possibly understand how you come to that conclusion.

Could you please explain to me what outside force had attacked Germany. What group had openly avowed they were going to destroy Germany. I am talking about acts here. Actual acts and talk of acts to take place against Germany.

Here is a similarity. Hitler wanted to eliminate the Jews. Most of those you worry so much about torturing have the same view.

To make absurd comparisons about Bush just ruins any sense you may make in the body of your argument.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by BYU71

time understanding each others views. Seattle I know you are sincere when you say the "torture" policy reminds you of Gestapo tactics. I am sincere in saying I can't possibly understand how you come to that conclusion.

Could you please explain to me what outside force had attacked Germany. What group had openly avowed they were going to destroy Germany. I am talking about acts here. Actual acts and talk of acts to take place against Germany.

Here is a similarity. Hitler wanted to eliminate the Jews. Most of those you worry so much about torturing have the same view.

To make absurd comparisons about Bush just ruins any sense you may make in the body of your argument.

Can you think of why the Germans felt oppressed and were suffering, due to outside intervention? That might be a good place to start.

I figured you would know since you lived through it!

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Tex

Funny enough, I would use this same logic to defend my position.

That's not 'logic' that's a description of the factual content and predicate for their position. I assume you get the difference?

That's a nice bumper sticker, but as usual, real life is more complicated. "Slippery slope" also happens to be a favorite logical fallacy.

How is it a 'logical fallacy? ' Please explain.

Just standing in front of the mirror and shouting "Slippery Slope!" three times each morning doesn't replace making a cogent argument for how we are becoming Nazi Part Deux.

I simply don't see it.

I am following this thread with interest and no one here suggested this nor did they suggest anything that supports this absurdist reduction. DO you have something to add or do you just want to hear yourself talk?

[BYU71]

back then. You have to remember I was just a teenager.

My understanding is as follows: It involves your model for how a Country should be run, The French.

After the US came in and saved the Frenches butts, the French put onerous restrictions on the Germans as part of the treaty. This gave rise to Hitler and his cronies.

My question to you is, when we get run over, who is going to come and save our butts. I am not counting on the French.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by BYU71

time understanding each others views. Seattle I know you are sincere when you say the "torture" policy reminds you of Gestapo tactics. I am sincere in saying I can't possibly understand how you come to that conclusion.

Could you please explain to me what outside force had attacked Germany. What group had openly avowed they were going to destroy Germany. I am talking about acts here. Actual acts and talk of acts to take place against Germany.

Here is a similarity. Hitler wanted to eliminate the Jews. Most of those you worry so much about torturing have the same view.

To make absurd comparisons about Bush just ruins any sense you may make in the body of your argument.

BYU71, no one knows for sure the darkness that lies in the heart of any man until it is given opportunity and reason to vent. All we have is history as our guide and it does not provide an encouraging portend. You don't want to loosen the fastenings that bind the authoritarian impulse, that's the point.

I'm not expressing fear of genocide here right now. I'm fearful of slow abridgement of our liberties until there are none. Ever heard the phrase absolute power corrupts absolutely? Ultimately, genoside does seem to go hand in hand with authoritiarianism, though.

I won't take the time here to revisit some atrocities that even our relatively enlightened republic has engaged in over the past two centuries.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Copout.

Right ... because your snarky little personal dig was so full of substance.

Originally Posted by creekster

That's not 'logic' that's a description of the factual content and predicate for their position. I assume you get the difference?

Fine. Then call it the "description of the factual content and predicate" for my position as well.

Originally Posted by creekster

How is it a 'logical fallacy? ' Please explain.

It's so common an instance of "slippery slope" that the Nazi's have their own dedicated version of it:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adnazium.html

Originally Posted by creekster

I am following this thread with interest and no one here suggested this nor did they suggest anything that supports this absurdist reduction. DO you have something to add or do you just want to hear yourself talk?

Indeed they have. They took us from "A" (moral, kind, benevolent America) to "B" (who sometimes engages in "aggressive interrogation") to "Z" (who is like Nazi Germany) in one breath. Then they pat each other on the back for how sensitive they are to the decline of Western Civilization.

It's a violation of common sense in every form of the word.

[BYU71]

I don't see how you fear his ability to gain control. The liberal press is on your side. He is fighting a very unpopular war and the public is against him.

If he had won the war. If their was democracy in the middle east. If the republicans had the congress and were sure to win the Presidency, then perhaps you could be concerned.

I just hope whether it is the good judgement of the American public or luck that neither extreme of the parties get control.

Perhaps if the religious right could gain control of the Country your fears would come to fruition. If the Michael Moores on the left got control of the country, my fears would come to fruition.

Maybe I am naive, but the slippery slope isn't valid yet.