Palestinian Right of Return - Page 5 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Jeff Lebowski · 05-20-2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

What I mean is, it hasn't worked on the Palestinians. But even so ... is there a statue of limitations on war borders? Shall we demand Alsace-Lorraine go back to Germany once more?

How long do Israelis have to live there before it's considered "their" land? Never? Could not that whole argument be applied to all of Israel? This gets much more complex once you push past the bumpersticker bromides.

If they are going to make it officially part of Israel, then they need to give the Palestinians the right to vote and participate in the political process. Continuing indefinitely in occupation status while continuing to incrementally confiscate homes, farms, property, and water from people in a densely populated region is immoral.

MikeWaters · 05-20-2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

What I mean is, it hasn't worked on the Palestinians. But even so ... is there a statue of limitations on war borders? Shall we demand Alsace-Lorraine go back to Germany once more?

How long do Israelis have to live there before it's considered "their" land? Never? Could not that whole argument be applied to all of Israel? This gets much more complex once you push past the bumpersticker bromides.

I guess it's their land when Palestianians decide it is. It may take genocide committed by Israelis to achieve this however.

non sequitur · 05-20-2008, 08:11 PM

If Israel weren't physically located in the heart of such a globally strategic area, would anyone give a shit about Israel? I suggest that if Israel and Madagascar swapped geographies, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict would never make the 5:00 news.

Indy Coug · 05-20-2008, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

If Israel weren't physically located in the heart of such a globally strategic area, would anyone give a shit about Israel? I suggest that if Israel and Madagascar swapped geographies, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict would never make the 5:00 news.

It goes well beyond geography. There are the religious connections as well as the collective guilt about all the Jewish deaths at the hands of Christians over the years.

Archaea · 05-20-2008, 08:15 PM

One thing that news coverage does for me is distort how people live there. I have never visited the Middle East, but my vision is one of constant bombings, death and deprivation. When I query Israelis about it, they say life is not that extraordinary and Israelis have adjusted to certain sorts of protective activities. And I know no Palestinians, but I imagine it is similar.

A better example involves South Korea. During the Seoul Olympics we saw some portraits of the demonstrators, which caused one to believe it was terribly fractious. However, a journalist I know who was there, stated, it was all very staged. Students would come in very orderly and then when it was time, protest and put on a good show, and then afterwards, leave. Obviously it's different in Palestine, but I don't know what to make of the imbalance or the distortions.

MikeWaters · 05-20-2008, 08:18 PM

McCain has said that Sadaam killed Iraq's Thomas Jeffersons.

Did Israel kill Palestine's?

Indy Coug · 05-20-2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

McCain has said that Sadaam killed Iraq's Thomas Jeffersons.

Did Israel kill Palestine's?

Hamas and Hezbollah probably would gladly do Israel's dirty work for them in this regard. Do you see them cultivating moderate voices?

non sequitur · 05-20-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

It goes well beyond geography. There are the religious connections as well as the collective guilt about all the Jewish deaths at the hands of Christians over the years.

I don't buy that. Is anyone still bitching about the millions that Stalin killed, or that Mao killed? Sure, we feel bad that so many Jews were killed during the holocaust, but sixty years after the fact our main concern is that the geography they occupy is surrounded by the largest concentration of oil fields on the planet. To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

MikeWaters · 05-20-2008, 08:23 PM

Here is the tradeoff:

Israelis address right of return (there could be many ways possibly).

Palestine gives up the claim that Israel should be destroyed.

Maybe we shouldn't do two states. There should be one state, and the differences be hashed out politicially.

Archaea · 05-20-2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Hamas and Hezbollah probably would gladly do Israel's dirty work for them in this regard. Do you see them cultivating moderate voices?

In reality, none of us really understand the voices within these cultures. You lived next to these cultures but do you really claim to understand them.

As westerners we tend to boil it down to human needs, but that oversimplifies a very complex situation which is clouded by culture, tradition and history, all of which can cause peoples to act irrationally and against their own self-interests.

Plus I don't even understand the internal power structure within those organizations, and how they work within their own societies.

What are the goals, unstated, of those organizations? To survive, to undermine Israel, to grow in power, to become successful, to seek revenge?

What are the real consensus goals, not what are the stated goals? How does one interact within that society to achieve them?

05-20-2008, 08:11 PM	#43
non sequitur Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,964	If Israel weren't physically located in the heart of such a globally strategic area, would anyone give a shit about Israel? I suggest that if Israel and Madagascar swapped geographies, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict would never make the 5:00 news. __________________ ...You've been under attack for days, there's a soldier down, he's wounded, gangrene's setting in, 'Who's used all the penicillin?' 'Oh, Mark Paxson sir, he's got knob rot off of some tart.'" - Gareth Keenan

05-20-2008, 08:15 PM	#45
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	One thing that news coverage does for me is distort how people live there. I have never visited the Middle East, but my vision is one of constant bombings, death and deprivation. When I query Israelis about it, they say life is not that extraordinary and Israelis have adjusted to certain sorts of protective activities. And I know no Palestinians, but I imagine it is similar. A better example involves South Korea. During the Seoul Olympics we saw some portraits of the demonstrators, which caused one to believe it was terribly fractious. However, a journalist I know who was there, stated, it was all very staged. Students would come in very orderly and then when it was time, protest and put on a good show, and then afterwards, leave. Obviously it's different in Palestine, but I don't know what to make of the imbalance or the distortions. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

05-20-2008, 08:18 PM	#46
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	McCain has said that Sadaam killed Iraq's Thomas Jeffersons. Did Israel kill Palestine's?

05-20-2008, 08:23 PM	#49
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Here is the tradeoff: Israelis address right of return (there could be many ways possibly). Palestine gives up the claim that Israel should be destroyed. Maybe we shouldn't do two states. There should be one state, and the differences be hashed out politicially.