Church makes gays and their children apostates - Page 12 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Archaea · 11-13-2015, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueK

Creating new problems by "solving" problems that don't really exist is unfortunately what lots of legislators, courts and lawyers often do.

It's also what a lot of companies do when writing new policies -- very often when taking advice of lawyers. No offense to Archaea, but I think it's the nature of the beast.

However, attorneys also advise against PR consequences. I believe Mike is more accurate. They had hope to dissuade members from accepting gay relations by separating them. And they did not foresee it would come public so quickly. Many miscalculations.

In reality, most legal preparation is repairing mistakes. It is extremely rare any organization seeks to be proactive and to anticipate the next barrage of events. I don't buy that logic here.

MikeWaters · 11-13-2015, 04:52 PM

I see the leadership switching course a little bit. The focus is on religious freedom. It's been a huge effort. Speeches. The Utah legislative effort where they described it as a compromise where religious freedom was protected. I think they very much imagine a future where Mormons are discriminated against because of views on gays, and they are trying to mitigate the future potential damage. They don't want a massive repeat of Prop 8 fallout where many members suffered loss of their careers and jobs as a result of their support of the church's efforts. Critics would say that they merely don't want to suffer the consequences of disapproval. But others would say that opposition to gay marriage and all that it entails should not merit the kind of action that has previously been seen (whether legal or illegal).

I'm just not convinced that the general membership is willing to go to war, Westboro style, over this issue. And that's where guys like Ute4ever jump in and talk about the wheat and the tares, and a sifting, and a smaller church. They want the war. I've heard the same language in my local congregation "we need to prepare to be unpopular." We already were unpopular. Now we must prepare to be pariahs over an issue that many of us don't see as the moral issue of our times.

Archaea · 11-13-2015, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I'm just not convinced that the general membership is willing to go to war, Westboro style, over this issue. And that's where guys like Ute4ever jump in and talk about the wheat and the tares, and a sifting, and a smaller church. They want the war. I've heard the same language in my local congregation "we need to prepare to be unpopular." We already were unpopular. Now we must prepare to be pariahs over an issue that many of us don't see as the moral issue of our times.

Excellent insight.

Mormons will viewed in the same terms as KKK and skinheads, over an issue that a majority disagrees with leadership.

BlueK · 11-13-2015, 06:14 PM

Well in that case, a few minutes ago maybe they just offended the members who want to bring on the "war" with this update:

https://www.lds.org/pages/church-han...L1-A_&lang=eng

Levin · 11-13-2015, 07:08 PM

I still don't like that we're withholding blessings from kids living with gay couples b/c it still sends the same message: we don't want you here -- you or your kids.

Here's what I wish the Church would have said before any of this:

"We welcome all people to worship with us. To those who keep the commandments but feel same-sex attraction, know that you are not sinful because of it. We welcome you to partake in all the blessings and ordinances of the gospel. To those who feel same-sex attraction and who act on it, whether in committed relationships or not, we welcome you to join us -- your families, your children, and your friends -- in our worship services and Church family. As with any person who breaks the law of chastity, however, doing so could subject you to Church discipline. But as we are all sinners, we hope you join us as we strive to follow Christ's teachings. To gay couples who have children, we quote the Savior: 'Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.'"

BlueK · 11-13-2015, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levin

I still don't like that we're withholding blessings from kids living with gay couples b/c it still sends the same message: we don't want you here -- you or your kids.

Here's what I wish the Church would have said before any of this:

"We welcome all people to worship with us. To those who keep the commandments but feel same-sex attraction, know that you are not sinful because of it. We welcome you to partake in all the blessings and ordinances of the gospel. To those who feel same-sex attraction and who act on it, whether in committed relationships or not, we welcome you to join us -- your families, your children, and your friends -- in our worship services and Church family. As with any person who breaks the law of chastity, however, doing so could subject you to Church discipline. But as we are all sinners, we hope you join us as we strive to follow Christ's teachings. To gay couples who have children, we quote the Savior: 'Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.'"

"As always, local leaders may request further guidance in particular instances when they have questions." Here's your loophole even for kids living primarily with same sex parents. Those who are friendly with the church and are attending or at least encouraging their child to actively participate are likely going to get permission once the local leaders make their case, IMO. I think they've essentially reduced it down now to where it effectively only applies to same gender parent households where the parents are completely unfamiliar with the church to begin with or are not friendly with it, in which case they wouldn't have been asking for their child to get blessed or baptized anyway.

MikeWaters · 11-13-2015, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levin

I still don't like that we're withholding blessings from kids living with gay couples b/c it still sends the same message: we don't want you here -- you or your kids.

Here's what I wish the Church would have said before any of this:

"We welcome all people to worship with us. To those who keep the commandments but feel same-sex attraction, know that you are not sinful because of it. We welcome you to partake in all the blessings and ordinances of the gospel. To those who feel same-sex attraction and who act on it, whether in committed relationships or not, we welcome you to join us -- your families, your children, and your friends -- in our worship services and Church family. As with any person who breaks the law of chastity, however, doing so could subject you to Church discipline. But as we are all sinners, we hope you join us as we strive to follow Christ's teachings. To gay couples who have children, we quote the Savior: 'Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.'"

Amen, brother.

MikeWaters · 11-13-2015, 07:43 PM

Even if a reproving was necessary, they forgot the 2nd part.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-te...21.43?lang=eng

Quote:

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

Levin · 11-13-2015, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Even if a reproving was necessary, they forgot the 2nd part.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-te...21.43?lang=eng

I thought the same thing. I was hoping to read a welcoming and loving word to gay adults.

MikeWaters · 11-13-2015, 08:01 PM

"Some people have interpreted this policy as meaning that we do not invite or want gay families to join us in our services. Quite the contrary. We invite you. We welcome you. Worship with us."

This is a glaring omission and it feeds the notion that the sentiment is exactly the opposite.

"Some people have interpreted this policy as meaning that we do not invite or want gay families to join us in our services. They are correct. Those in active apostasy are not welcome."

Which is it????

11-13-2015, 07:08 PM	#115
Levin Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,484	I still don't like that we're withholding blessings from kids living with gay couples b/c it still sends the same message: we don't want you here -- you or your kids. Here's what I wish the Church would have said before any of this: "We welcome all people to worship with us. To those who keep the commandments but feel same-sex attraction, know that you are not sinful because of it. We welcome you to partake in all the blessings and ordinances of the gospel. To those who feel same-sex attraction and who act on it, whether in committed relationships or not, we welcome you to join us -- your families, your children, and your friends -- in our worship services and Church family. As with any person who breaks the law of chastity, however, doing so could subject you to Church discipline. But as we are all sinners, we hope you join us as we strive to follow Christ's teachings. To gay couples who have children, we quote the Savior: 'Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.'" __________________ "Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12

11-13-2015, 04:52 PM	#112
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I see the leadership switching course a little bit. The focus is on religious freedom. It's been a huge effort. Speeches. The Utah legislative effort where they described it as a compromise where religious freedom was protected. I think they very much imagine a future where Mormons are discriminated against because of views on gays, and they are trying to mitigate the future potential damage. They don't want a massive repeat of Prop 8 fallout where many members suffered loss of their careers and jobs as a result of their support of the church's efforts. Critics would say that they merely don't want to suffer the consequences of disapproval. But others would say that opposition to gay marriage and all that it entails should not merit the kind of action that has previously been seen (whether legal or illegal). I'm just not convinced that the general membership is willing to go to war, Westboro style, over this issue. And that's where guys like Ute4ever jump in and talk about the wheat and the tares, and a sifting, and a smaller church. They want the war. I've heard the same language in my local congregation "we need to prepare to be unpopular." We already were unpopular. Now we must prepare to be pariahs over an issue that many of us don't see as the moral issue of our times.

11-13-2015, 06:14 PM	#114
BlueK Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 2,368	Well in that case, a few minutes ago maybe they just offended the members who want to bring on the "war" with this update: https://www.lds.org/pages/church-han...L1-A_&lang=eng

11-13-2015, 08:01 PM	#120
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	*"Some people have interpreted this policy as meaning that we do not invite or want gay families to join us in our services. Quite the contrary. We invite you. We welcome you. Worship with us."* This is a glaring omission and it feeds the notion that the sentiment is exactly the opposite. *"Some people have interpreted this policy as meaning that we do not invite or want gay families to join us in our services. They are correct. Those in active apostasy are not welcome."* Which is it????