Minimum Wage

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

liberals (myself included) would agree with you

I know. And believe me, I have been castigated severely on CB for that position.

Lots of shades of gray in this stuff, huh?

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

you missed her point, they get screwed a lot earlier.

There is not question that there are problems in our public education system that need to be addressed. The "how" is the big question there and is not really the topic of this thread.

All I'm saying is the solution is to fix those things and give people every opportunity for education, etc. If they choose not to avail themselves of those opportunity, let them reap what they sow. Don't force me to pay them more than the market will bear.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

You can go to community college with a GED. And they have remedial classes to boot. If you can't progress beyond that, maybe you don't belong in college?

I apologize. I was rude.

I'm happy for you that you were able to succeed against pretty much all odds, but your case is an aberration.

Your comment was that no one is being held down...if there are those that do not pursue education it is because they've made a choice.

I inferred from your comment a reference to the victimization complex that so many here on this board dislike. I agree that there are cases in which we should not be allowed to abdicate responsibility and cry victim.

However, to try to suggest that children should somehow be held responsible for the inadequacies of their education is absurd. They are not missing out on college by choice. To a large extent, their fates were determined much earlier. I don't care whom you hold responsible - the schools, the parents, society at large, but don't try to place the blame on adolescents who are fundamentally just kids.

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

I inferred from your comment a reference to the victimization complex that so many here on this board dislike. I agree that there are cases in which we should not be allowed to abdicate responsibility and cry victim.

This is why generalizations are tough. I DO abhor the victim complex. But there are certainly those to whom it does not apply.

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

However, to try to suggest that children should somehow be held responsible for the inadequacies of their education is absurd. They are not missing out on college by choice. To a large extent, their fates were determined much earlier. I don't care whom you hold responsible - the schools, the parents, society at large, but don't try to place the blame on adolescents who are fundamentally just kids.

Agreed. My point was mainly regarding post-secondary education, but you have a valid point.

[Colly Wolly]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

Let's hold everybody else down and make them dumb and ignorant.

It's cold and it's counterproductive. Everyone can benefit from an education, even the working class.

Education is supposed to be the great equalizer, the vehicle to extend the American dream accessible to everybody.

I'm sorry if I am a little late to the party, but this comment is incredibly naive. You can't force people to finish high school or get a college degree. Yes there are many people who are disadvantaged by their environment, but I don't believe that a crack dealer or a career janitor was "let down" by "the man".

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

People ARE incapable of economically succeeding without the help of the government, at least in this country. Even you would agree with that statement if you thought about it.

The government creates a framework within which commerce can function. It requires disclosure for securities trading. It requires transparency in the marketplace. It enforces debt collections, it requires people to honor contracts and commitments, it provides us with roads, regulates communication infrastructures to allow uninhibited communications to anywhere in the world, supports the internet, actively prosecutes fraud, provides a safety net in the form of bankruptcy laws (which encourage risk-taking, thereby promoting business interests), etc. YOUR problem appears to begin when the government reaches out to help those who are on the lowest rungs of our societal economic ladder.

Even FM Coug noted that he was successful in part due to pell grants (a government program). How many poor people could go to college without them? How many could afford private schooling without publicly funded elementary and secondary schools? How many would have to drop out and get a job to help a family eat if not for welfare and other such programs? How many [more] would be incapable of obtaining health insurance if not for government programs, and then would be devastated economically by a serious health condition?

Many people make it in this country with less help from the government (though never with no help from the government). That doesn't mean that everyone can.

I just don't understand the arrogance of people claiming they "made it on their own."

Ok, I'll concede that people without the funds do need to be able to apply for grants and student loans.

I see now that I was unclear in my comments. When I say that there is no reason for anyone in this country to not be successful, I mean that they need to get of their asses and do whatever they have to do to be successful. How many people are not willing to get a high school education and then do all the necessary work to get student loans or grants? Those are the ones I'm talking about.

I earned my education paid for with baseball by countless hours in a batting cage and busting my hiney in catcher's gear and getting behind the plate to have thousands and thousands of baseballs thrown in the dirt to learn how to block the ball. Nobody in the government helped me do that. I did what I had to do to get to the point of trading baseball for an education and then busted my ass in school to get through in 3 years instead of 4. I then went to a private mortuary school and worked full time away from school in order to not have student loan debts after I finished.

If that makes me arrogant, so be it. I just don't understand how people underestimate what others do in order to "make it on their own". Perhaps we have different definitions of what that is?

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Colly Wolly

I'm sorry if I am a little late to the party, but this comment is incredibly naive. You can't force people to finish high school or get a college degree. Yes there are many people who are disadvantaged by their environment, but I don't believe that a crack dealer or a career janitor was "let down" by "the man".

Amen, Colly. Preach on, brother.

[Colly Wolly]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

People ARE incapable of economically succeeding without the help of the government, at least in this country.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=woRGbEAlB...elated&search=

Fastfoward to 1:15. "THE GOVERNMENT!"

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

we don't. we're trying to determine the factors that correlate with success so we can determine how the government can expand opportunity to more people. you keep making oversimplistic, dichotomous statements.

Here's a thought - if one truly desires to get an education, one will do what it takes to get one.

Simple, yet accurate.

[Colly Wolly]

I am trying to envision the spectrum of people who drop out of high school. Is this breakdown unfair?

99% - don't like school, get in to trouble because of peer pressure, aren't responsible, etc.

1% - really and truly, for reasons outside of their control, cannot finish high school due to constaints (family problems require them to begin working before finishing their degree, etc).

My heart goes out to the 1%. These people should have access to help to finish school and get a college degree if they desire.

The other 99% fill an important economic role in any society.