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Old 04-12-2007, 02:23 AM   #21
jay santos
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Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
That is WAY overstating things. People watch too much TV.
Well I've been in a few courtrooms, too. And I know it's overstating, but I don't think it's overstating too much.
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Old 04-12-2007, 02:26 AM   #22
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Fair but exaggerated point. There are good prosecutors, but if not checked by defense attorneys abusive practices woudl very, very quickly overwhlem the cjs.
Exaggeration is a great way to make a point.

I can believe that an overly ambitious prosecutor will ignore certain liberties of an accused person in order to further his/her career and I feel that is wrong. But as a law abiding citizen, it's more difficult for me to feel badly for someone who willingly breaks the law.

Defense attorneys are needed and serve a good purpose. My opinion is not a knock on them, as they are only doing their job. I just have very little sympathy for people who commit crime.
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Old 04-12-2007, 02:29 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by jay santos View Post
Well I've been in a few courtrooms, too. And I know it's overstating, but I don't think it's overstating too much.
Look we all put the best spin on things we can. That means accentuating the positive and downplaying the negative in our cases. But look, very few people becomes millionaires practicing law except for the guys who do mass tort litigation and the partners at the biggest firms. For the other 99% of us, only a very few think it is worth while to sell their integrity for the sake of any particular client. Why do it? For the money? Just to win? If you get caught doing something unethical you lose our license. I can't think of any client or fee I would risk that for.
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Old 04-12-2007, 02:46 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute View Post
Exaggeration is a great way to make a point.

I can believe that an overly ambitious prosecutor will ignore certain liberties of an accused person in order to further his/her career and I feel that is wrong. But as a law abiding citizen, it's more difficult for me to feel badly for someone who willingly breaks the law.

Defense attorneys are needed and serve a good purpose. My opinion is not a knock on them, as they are only doing their job. I just have very little sympathy for people who commit crime.
Here's a point Paddy.

Law works because people consent to be governed. I believe it can empircally demonstrated that people consent if they believe that the law will generally be enforced fairly or that punishment is so certain they fear it.

If prosecutors are allowed to run amuk, then the citizens will have no faith in the system. In order to protect the integrity of the system for all, it is necessary that everybody, especially the guilty be guaranteed basic rights. There are very few prosecutors who wouldn't deny a defendant his constitutional rights if left unchecked. However, if we start to believe the system is rigged,we stop following the laws. Why follow? I'll just be ramned to hell no matter what. You will see the lawlessness of Iraq or even Russia where people no longer believe in the system.

Guilty people must go free if the system doesn't do its job.
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:03 AM   #25
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Guilty people must go free if the system doesn't do its job.
I agree with this. The system we have isn't perfect, but it's the best around.

Still, I believe that if one obeys the laws, one has no need to worry about a prosecutor bent on getting a conviction at all costs. That's the point I was making, which I'm sure is one that all can agree with.
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:06 AM   #26
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I agree with this. The system we have isn't perfect, but it's the best around.

Still, I believe that if one obeys the laws, one has no need to worry about a prosecutor bent on getting a conviction at all costs. That's the point I was making, which I'm sure is one that all can agree with.
That is naive to believe simple obedience to law will guarantee you will be immune from the wrath of prosecutors.

All you need is for a law enforcement to "believe" you violated the law, accummulate incriminating evidence and the prosecutor will trust that evidence collected as opposed to your honest declarations of innocence.
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Old 04-12-2007, 04:17 AM   #27
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Look we all put the best spin on things we can. That means accentuating the positive and downplaying the negative in our cases. But look, very few people becomes millionaires practicing law except for the guys who do mass tort litigation and the partners at the biggest firms. For the other 99% of us, only a very few think it is worth while to sell their integrity for the sake of any particular client. Why do it? For the money? Just to win? If you get caught doing something unethical you lose our license. I can't think of any client or fee I would risk that for.
Unethical is relative. Dishonest is relative too. Illegal's pretty cut and dry. I don't imagine the avg lawyer will do something illegal to win a case, but certainly will lie, distort, cover the truth, manipulate, use tactics, etc. I'm a little jaded by the legal system recognizing there is no effort to seek the truth only to make the best case possible, generally completely ignoring the truth. The most skillful side wins, which usually seems to correlate more to who has the resources or connections not the truth. Speaking of corrupt prosecutors, check out the corruption between cops, prosecutors, and judges in a small town. It's sickening. But even that doesn't compare to the corruption of a big time defender with oodles of cash at his disposal.
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Old 04-12-2007, 04:21 AM   #28
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Unethical is relative. Dishonest is relative too. Illegal's pretty cut and dry. I don't imagine the avg lawyer will do something illegal to win a case, but certainly will lie, distort, cover the truth, manipulate, use tactics, etc. I'm a little jaded by the legal system recognizing there is no effort to seek the truth only to make the best case possible, generally completely ignoring the truth. The most skillful side wins, which usually seems to correlate more to who has the resources or connections not the truth. Speaking of corrupt prosecutors, check out the corruption between cops, prosecutors, and judges in a small town. It's sickening. But even that doesn't compare to the corruption of a big time defender with oodles of cash at his disposal.
You're jaded but don't have a bird's eye view of it.

The system assumes adverse positions will show contrasts so that a disinterested observer will see the truth. It's better than the French system, and does okay most of the time. Better advocacy usually makes a small difference on the fringes or in maximizing how much or how little somebody gets.

Just as philosophers see different angles, so do attorneys. There is corruption in the system, but usually not how outsiders view it. Your jaded view just sounds like something an observant outsider makes and is really not borne out empiracally.
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Old 04-12-2007, 04:26 AM   #29
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That is naive to believe simple obedience to law will guarantee you will be immune from the wrath of prosecutors.

All you need is for a law enforcement to "believe" you violated the law, accummulate incriminating evidence and the prosecutor will trust that evidence collected as opposed to your honest declarations of innocence.
Again, I can agree with this. I should have been clear that I was speaking more about me than all. I don't do anything that would cause the law to come after me. Granted, it could happen, but odds are in my favor by obeying the laws.
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Old 04-12-2007, 04:32 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
Look we all put the best spin on things we can. That means accentuating the positive and downplaying the negative in our cases. But look, very few people becomes millionaires practicing law except for the guys who do mass tort litigation and the partners at the biggest firms. For the other 99% of us, only a very few think it is worth while to sell their integrity for the sake of any particular client. Why do it? For the money? Just to win? If you get caught doing something unethical you lose our license. I can't think of any client or fee I would risk that for.
If what you say is true then why are so many lawyers blatantly dishonest anyway?
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