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Old 08-13-2008, 08:09 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute View Post
Mike points to scouting as an example. They won't pull the plug on something that is an overall good thing for kids to experience.
Brigham Young killed many naive immigrants with handcarts so let the mismanagement and bloodletting continue.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:04 PM   #22
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Brigham Young killed many naive immigrants with handcarts so let the mismanagement and bloodletting continue.
Sometimes you let your bigotry get in the way of letting people know you're a good guy.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:06 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by MikeWaters View Post
a family handcart expedition in the middle of a lane on a two-lane road, in a dangerous canyon.

that's a little bit crazy in my book. I hope others will take heed.
How fast was the guy in the truck going? How familiar was he with the road? Why did he not take precautions to shade his eyes from the sun while driving?

If this had been cyclists rather than people pulling a handcart, would you have posted this?
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute View Post
Sometimes you let your bigotry get in the way of letting people know you're a good guy.
The truth is not bigotry. People who have studied this objectively concluded it was a reckless plan. Even in its time it was recognized as horrible management. BY tried to throw the other Elders under the bus, cf.

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/V...JDvol4-13.html

Plain and simple most of those people were helpless immigrants pulled from impoverished conditions and had no choice but to go forward as they were instructed by the people who recruited them. Unfortunately they were given horrible equipment and forced to follow insane and inhumane travel plans. I am astonished about how this can be twisted into some object lesson for youth, often including injury, and now another sad tragedy.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute View Post
How fast was the guy in the truck going? How familiar was he with the road? Why did he not take precautions to shade his eyes from the sun while driving?

If this had been cyclists rather than people pulling a handcart, would you have posted this?
I don't know how fast that truck was going, but people here say that the traffic is fast and the road is dangerous.

It's definitely not a road I would cycle on.

The person driving the truck needs to be punished, doesn't matter if he kills handcarters or cyclists.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:18 PM   #26
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I don't know how fast that truck was going, but people here say that the traffic is fast and the road is dangerous.

It's definitely not a road I would cycle on.

The person driving the truck needs to be punished, doesn't matter if he kills handcarters or cyclists.
There is so much winding, that cars for the most part, are driving in the 40-50 mph range. The thing that makes it dangerous is the lack of much shoulder on the side as well as so many curves.

In terms of punishing the driver...I dont know all of the facts, but if he is going 45mph and goes around a blind curve and took them out, hard to get too angry with him. Now, if he was on one of the straighter parts and had been driving it for 50 yards and he had the sun in his eyes and he was winging it, well, punishment may be needed. With all that said, terrible for all involved.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute View Post
How fast was the guy in the truck going? How familiar was he with the road? Why did he not take precautions to shade his eyes from the sun while driving?

If this had been cyclists rather than people pulling a handcart, would you have posted this?
Il Pad, you've been to Huntington Canyon and know how nasty that road is b/w Huntington and Fairview. It's insanity to take a large group of slow moving people to walk on the narrow shoulder. I wouldn't even ride a bike in that area, especially coming from Electric Lake down to Fairview.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:31 PM   #28
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Il Pad, you've been to Huntington Canyon and know how nasty that road is b/w Huntington and Fairview. It's insanity to take a large group of slow moving people to walk on the narrow shoulder. I wouldn't even ride a bike in that area, especially coming from Electric Lake down to Fairview.
I agree completely. I was just trying to point out that the driver was just as much at fault as those pulling the handcarts. And yes, trying to bait Mike a bit.

And Mike, I've driven that canyon several times. People drive through it much too fast for the conditions, even on a nice weather day.

I agree that that is not a place for a handcart - or a bike for that matter. It was a tragedy that it happened and it could have been avoided by all involved being more careful.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:33 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyrum View Post
The truth is not bigotry. People who have studied this objectively concluded it was a reckless plan. Even in its time it was recognized as horrible management. BY tried to throw the other Elders under the bus, cf.

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/V...JDvol4-13.html

Plain and simple most of those people were helpless immigrants pulled from impoverished conditions and had no choice but to go forward as they were instructed by the people who recruited them. Unfortunately they were given horrible equipment and forced to follow insane and inhumane travel plans. I am astonished about how this can be twisted into some object lesson for youth, often including injury, and now another sad tragedy.
There is truth in what you say about the equipment, but you've established yourself as a Mormon antagonist, hence the reason I believe you posted it with a bigoted intent.
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Old 08-14-2008, 07:16 AM   #30
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In the local paper today, the sheriff was quoted as saying it's unlikely the driver will be charged with anything.
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