Congratulation mormons

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

well ,i guess our elite system is a little bit different with what is practicing in your country.

since i am fast tody ( running out of Glucose ) i will explain it later hopefully.

Rulers almost never suffer the fate of commoners. It has always been the case and it probably always will. To deny this, is to deny a basic reality of life.

Outside of Christ, Buddha and Ghandi, what rulers haven't profited from ruling.

Look at the Clintons. They are wealthy beyond belief, simply because they are rulers. They have provided no medicine, developed no devices, rendered food to the masses, but they have ruled and become wealthy isolating themselves from the realities of life.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I feel like we are talking past each other here because of this very fundamental disagreement.

It must be so ,otherwise i wouldnot have hard time to comprehend mormon mission .
muslim missionaries are people who choose to build thier belief system through islamic education and improve their spirit to the point that spirit freedom becomes more pleasent and valuable than be surrendered to the manly desires, but it doesnt mean that they would be living through seclusion and grief ,on the contrary they mostly would be having healthy ,simple and enjoyable life .

so they are going to have a lifetime study and research ,endeavoring to find the truth and serve islam and muslims ... when they become eligible enough they would be elected to go to the mission , managing muslims affiars ,answering their questions and solving thier problems as much as they can.. and also meet non muslim who are coming to them with a mind full of questions .
worthy adding point is noone in islam is supposed to recommend others to good and prevent them from evil as long as he isnot committed to those deed himself !

thats why muslim missionaries get to be quite cautious about that , despite the fact they get equipped with the self built controlling system . there is also a specific system which would perform punishment if missionaries plead guilty ..

becuase they have no right to betray people trust , if they arenot willing to be observant clerics ..thats fine ..not just play with peopole's belief .

islam does respect the free agencey ,but cannot stand missionaries (who are transgressor themselves ) tell the people what to do and what not to do .

this is how the mission system works in Iran ..thats why i was curious to find out how a newly mormon would feel if he realises the one who helped him to convert to mormonism , is not supposed to follow the principals ?

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Rulers almost never suffer the fate of commoners. It has always been the case and it probably always will. To deny this, is to deny a basic reality of life.

Outside of Christ, Buddha and Ghandi, what rulers haven't profited from ruling.

Look at the Clintons. They are wealthy beyond belief, simply because they are rulers. They have provided no medicine, developed no devices, rendered food to the masses, but they have ruled and become wealthy isolating themselves from the realities of life.

well in Iran we are having Theocracy ...so things are just different .i think we should move to the thread "the politics of God"

But i cannot believe you expect the former president of the united states of america has a simple/routine life as you do ...

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

It must be so ,otherwise i wouldnot have hard time to comprehend mormon mission .
muslim missionaries are people who choose to build thier belief system through islamic education and improve their spirit to the point that spirit freedom becomes more pleasent and valuable than be surrendered to the manly desires, but it doesnt mean that they would be living through seclusion and grief ,on the contrary they mostly would be having healthy ,simple and enjoyable life .

so they are going to have a lifetime study and research ,endeavoring to find the truth and serve islam and muslims ... when they become eligible enough they would be elected to go to the mission , managing muslims affiars ,answering their questions and solving thier problems as much as they can.. and also meet non muslim who are coming to them with a mind full of questions .
worthy adding point is noone in islam is supposed to recommend others to good and prevent them from evil as long as he isnot committed to those deed himself !

thats why muslim missionaries get to be quite cautious about that , despite the fact they get equipped with the self built controlling system . there is also a specific system which would perform punishment if missionaries plead guilty ..

becuase they have no right to betray people trust , if they arenot willing to be observant clerics ..thats fine ..not just play with peopole's belief .

islam does respect the free agencey ,but cannot stand missionaries (who are transgressor themselves ) tell the people what to do and what not to do .

this is how the mission system works in Iran ..thats why i was curious to find out how a newly mormon would feel if he realises the one who helped him to convert to mormonism , is not supposed to follow the principals ?

You are incorrect in saying the missionaries "aren't supposed to follow the principals." Of course they are. We just don't imprison our missionaries when they fail to do so like you note Islam does.

If Islamic missionaries were as dedicated and devout as you claim in your first few paragraphs, there would be no need for an external punishment system for those who fail. There wouldn't be any failures.

What you are acknowledging, without even realizing it, is that Mormon missionaries and Islamic missionaries are both prone to error. Islam just takes the extra step of brutally punishing those who step out of line. I wouldn't assume that a regime of brutal punishment for missionaries is per se better than one without such punishment.

Hopefully a new Mormon who was converted by a lousy missionary would recognize that the new Mormon's belief was built on Christ and God and not on a belief in the missionary. If the testimony was built on the missionary, then a fall from the church would be inevitable anyways.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

You are incorrect in saying the missionaries "aren't supposed to follow the principals." Of course they are. We just don't imprison our missionaries when they fail to do so like you note Islam does.

If Islamic missionaries were as dedicated and devout as you claim in your first few paragraphs, there would be no need for an external punishment system for those who fail. There wouldn't be any failures.

What you are acknowledging, without even realizing it, is that Mormon missionaries and Islamic missionaries are both prone to error. Islam just takes the extra step of brutally punishing those who step out of line. I wouldn't assume that a regime of brutal punishment for missionaries is per se better than one without such punishment.

Hopefully a new Mormon who was converted by a lousy missionary would recognize that the new Mormon's belief was built on Christ and God and not on a belief in the missionary. If the testimony was built on the missionary, then a fall from the church would be inevitable anyways.

you arenot punishing those who are supposed to do something ,but fail to meet the demand???
so under which circumstances you probably might be inclined to consider punishment??
would you in any possiblity believe in a world free of punishment??? I explosively wish it could be true... but i am sorry itsnot .

I am certain you appreciate that in many cases ,punishment is a natural consequence of the act itself ....like when we fail to watch our diet , our health system would punish us with producing disease ...its just the way it is.

but honestly as a human being i could not hide my eagerness to have a world free of punishment ... just imagine to recieve 4ooo kcal each day for more than 30 years ,and not getting fat!!!

please let me help you to get acquainted with islamic mission system here in Iran ,so you would no longer be mistaken.

mission in islam isnot just a two year duty ,its a life time career and committment and the goal of every missionaries is to become an Ayatollah which indeed requaires extraordinary sincer effort to achive that .

An Ayatollah is someone who might be followed by ordinary people through thier lives , so they got to be ultra cautious owing to the ultra duty they have got to fullfill.

granted ,human being is fairly predisposed to the error and mistakes even in the last second of life ,due to the permanent presence of satan in matter of temptation.
but islam unlike with ( what is in mormon doctine) doesnot believe Satan wanted to require all people to do what was right (as you pointed out in your previous post) rather believes satan possesses the power to tempt human to do wrong or not doing right ,and that man could get empowered to deafet him , difficult job ,but still possible!

ergo we are witness of the human being superiority over angels in islam , since angels technically cannot do wrong ,but human being doesnot do wrong ,while he has the power and the will to do so.

in a side note ,missionaries who get well informed about thier tremendous task, are welcomed to leave the mission any time if they recognise they arenot able /willing to appropriately following islamic teachings ..so they wouldnot ended up ridiculing people's belief .

as the last few words .... islam never penalizes people/missionaries for their errors ,not even for thier mistakes ..just in case if they are pleaded guilty , hope you recognise the difference.

the thought i cannot get rid of is " whats the point of adding new memeber to the church by people that God and chris arenot just working for them "??

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

you arenot punishing those who are supposed to do something ,but fail to meet the demand???
so under which circumstances you probably might be inclined to consider punishment??
would you in any possiblity believe in a world free of punishment??? I explosively wish it could be true... but i am sorry itsnot .

I am certain you appreciate that in many cases ,punishment is a natural consequence of the act itself ....like when we fail to watch our diet , our health system would punish us with producing disease ...its just the way it is.

but honestly as a human being i could not hide my eagerness to have a world free of punishment ... just imagine to recieve 4ooo kcal each day for more than 30 years ,and not getting fat!!!

please let me help you to get acquainted with islamic mission system here in Iran ,so you would no longer be mistaken.

mission in islam isnot just a two year duty ,its a life time career and committment and the goal of every missionaries is to become an Ayatollah which indeed requaires extraordinary sincer effort to achive that .

An Ayatollah is someone who might be followed by ordinary people through thier lives , so they got to be ultra cautious owing to the ultra duty they have got to fullfill.

granted ,human being is fairly predisposed to the error and mistakes even in the last second of life ,due to the permanent presence of satan in matter of temptation.
but islam unlike with ( what is in mormon doctine) doesnot believe Satan wanted to require all people to do what was right (as you pointed out in your previous post) rather believes satan possesses the power to tempt human to do wrong or not doing right ,and that man could get empowered to deafet him , difficult job ,but still possible!

ergo we are witness of the human being superiority over angels in islam , since angels technically cannot do wrong ,but human being doesnot do wrong ,while he has the power and the will to do so.

in a side note ,missionaries who get well informed about thier tremendous task, are welcomed to leave the mission any time if they recognise they arenot able /willing to appropriately following islamic teachings ..so they wouldnot ended up ridiculing people's belief .

as the last few words .... islam never penalizes people/missionaries for their errors ,not even for thier mistakes ..just in case if they are pleaded guilty , hope you recognise the difference.

the thought i cannot get rid of is " whats the point of adding new memeber to the church by people that God and chris arenot just working for them "??

No, there is a punishment. It just doesn't come from man. We assume that God is competent enough to do whatever needs to be done with a sinner, and we also believe heavily in the principle of forgiveness and repentence. I find it interesting that you seem to believe that if someone isn't physically harmed by another person for spiritual transgressions, there won't be any punishment at all. Is Allah incapable of punishment in Islamic belief?

I also find it interesting that you focus so heavily on the need for "punishment." This again goes back to my point that a fundamental disagreement we have on religion is that I believe we should follow God out of love; you appear to believe that we have to follow God out of fear of reprisal. For you, if there was no punishment, there would be no reason to do what God wanted. For me, if there was no punishment, there would still be a reason to do what God wanted: because I love God and want to grow closer to God even if I won't be punished for failing to do so.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

No, there is a punishment. It just doesn't come from man. We assume that God is competent enough to do whatever needs to be done with a sinner, and we also believe heavily in the principle of forgiveness and repentence. I find it interesting that you seem to believe that if someone isn't physically harmed by another person for spiritual transgressions, there won't be any punishment at all. Is Allah incapable of punishment in Islamic belief?

I also find it interesting that you focus so heavily on the need for "punishment." This again goes back to my point that a fundamental disagreement we have on religion is that I believe we should follow God out of love; you appear to believe that we have to follow God out of fear of reprisal. For you, if there was no punishment, there would be no reason to do what God wanted. For me, if there was no punishment, there would still be a reason to do what God wanted: because I love God and want to grow closer to God even if I won't be punished for failing to do so.

Of course God is competent and the only one who knows best ,thats why he created the universe based on wisely natural law ,so anything has its postion ,and any action has its reaction .

He is also the one who created human being who given an opportunity to design thier fate and future .
i think its something we both agree on ,hopefully ...

Thus the feedbacks of our deeds ,the actions and reactions and the punishments of wrong and praises of rights are inevitably inseparable.. and your denial is not going to help change this fact any way ,even if there is no one to punishs us or praises us in real life .

I have no idea from where you got all those wrong impression about me being passionate toward physical punishment.... accidentally ,you dont have fox news , ON, while reading my post??

worshiping God out of love,in my belief is unexplainably intoxicating ! and if any man could truely reach out this kingdom , he basically wouldnot be able/willing to do wrong owning the God's love ecstacy...

but if someone claims of worshiping God out of love ..dont you think he has got to show it somewhere through his deeds ??? thats why you would NOT turn back to the criminal who has broked to your house, disrespected your family and stole your properties ...saying ...".I will wait to see what God does with you " instead of calling the police!

(we both know that no one was born criminal but turning out to a wicked person through committing spiritual sins over and over) .

so you are claiming something that you cannot back it up through real life , although i wish you could .

but well , if you like to put it in a fundemental disagreement category ..lets keep it a fundemental disagreement then .

I am glad we had this discussion ..enjoy your religion.

[Archaea]

Mindful,

You seem to equate "crimes" such burglary with sins such as blasphemy.

For the most part, Islam is the only religion of which I am aware that believes men must physically punish other men for sins. It is true during medieval times that Christianity adopted this from Islam and practiced for a while. But Christianity has shed this false belief that men should punish other men for blasphemy.

Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity no longer belief in corporeal punishment by men for sins. Islam stands alone and is therefore the most violent of all religions, more violent than the rest combined.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Mindful,

You seem to equate "crimes" such burglary with sins such as blasphemy.

For the most part, Islam is the only religion of which I am aware that believes men must physically punish other men for sins. It is true during medieval times that Christianity adopted this from Islam and practiced for a while. But Christianity has shed this false belief that men should punish other men for blasphemy.

Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity no longer belief in corporeal punishment by men for sins. Islam stands alone and is therefore the most violent of all religions, more violent than the rest combined.

blasphemy isnot considered a punishment's candidate in Islam as long as it doesnot hurt others belief , feeling and freedom... when a person 's blashphemy toward men and women relationship gets him into commit adultry and disrespect women ..and when there are several grievance papers filled agianst him... so what do you think should be awaiting for him ?? a BYU season ticket ??? not likely.

funny enough when an american waves anti-violance flag!

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

blasphemy isnot considered a punishment's candidate in Islam as long as it doesnot hurt others belief , feeling and freedom... when a person 's blashphemy toward men and women relationship gets him into commit adultry and disrespect women ..and when there are several grievance papers filled agianst him... so what do you think should be awaiting for him ?? a BYU season ticket ??? not likely.

funny enough when an american waves anti-violance flag!

There is no physical punishment for adultery in western nations nor in many Asian nations. That's not a crime, but a sin. Rape is a crime, adultery is not.

I don't believe the lack of corporeal punishment means there isn't any suffering and it's not for men to punish. That is very, very animalistic. It's veneal, and vile.

It is very neanderthalic to physically punish people for sins. It just is. That is vital difference between the rest of the world, all five billion and Islam. Islam loves physical punishment.

Christ, our teacher, abhored physical violence, so much so, when his disciple cut off the ear of a soldier, he healed the soldier and reprimanded his disciple. In Islam, the disciple would have cut the soldier's head off. That is the distinction.

You equate the lack of physical punishment with reward. There is no personal reward in doing evil, and escaping immediate physical punishment is not a reward. That is a huge distinction which apparently do not understand.