American Tax System - Freedom or Tyranny?

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

I just did a little rough math. The Federal budget for 2008 was about 3.1 trillion dollars. There are about 300 million Americans. That would put each person's Federal tax liability at 10,333. My family of four would be required to pay 41,332 if taxes were divided fairly for each person. Why do we allow our elected officials to spend like this?

Because they give us tax "cuts" to fleece us. If we actually had to pay for what they're spending, we'd never stand for it.

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Because they give us tax "cuts" to fleece us. If we actually had to pay for what they're spending, we'd never stand for it.

This makes me sick. We are so dumb and uninformed as a society and the media does nothing to help us.

[BlueHair]

This problem is too big to fix. It's no wonder the house of cards we call our financial system is coming down.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Consumption tax is a nice idea, except that it discourages spending, which hurts the economy and leads to decreased revenues.

I disagree .... It vastly improves the economy. Think about it.. If your business did not have to pay FICA that is 7.65% more dollars to use in the company. To put that in perspective I worked at a hospital with 10,000 employees and 600 million in Salary Costs. 7.65% of that is 46 million. If the annual net revenues for that hospital was about 1 billion that is 4% operating margin. There are very few (like less than 10) hospitals that run on 4% margins.

Now take into consideration all the business that move to the US. If you are toyota why headquarter in Japan when you could move to the US and not pay taxes.

IMO the fair tax would be the biggest boon to our economy ever.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Consumption tax is a nice idea, except that it discourages spending, which hurts the economy and leads to decreased revenues.

It encourages savings and investment, something this country needs more of. If we decrease revenues and make the government live within its means, why would that be so bad.

We encourage people to only spend what they need or for what they are willing to be taxed on, and encourage thrift.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Archaea

If we decrease revenues and make the government live within its means, why would that be so bad.

And you accuse Obama fans of living in a fantasy world!

[minn_stat]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

I want to correct a couple of misrepresentations before somebody takes you on on.

First, according to your source it's not "nearly fifty percent" that don't pay taxes. It's forty percent. Let the number speak for itself.

Second, it's a little silly to suggest that that entire 40% is voting Democrat (or at least I assume that that's what you must mean when you say that this population votes for "representatives who promise to raise taxes on others, but contribute nothing.") In 2004, 36% of voters with incomes under 15k voted Bush, and Bush's share increased with each successive income bracket. (Obviously, the population that turned out to vote is not statistically representative of the population as a whole; so my statement is not intended to suggest that 36% of your group votes Republican, but only to demonstrate that the group is not wholly comprised of Democratic voters.)

Third, there's an extent to which you portray these 40% of Americans as lowlifes who contribute nothing but are trying to create a system in which they can live as some kind of parasite off of productive society. But the 40% that you cite includes -- in addition to the parasites -- students, mothers, and all the others who pay no income taxes because they choose to have no income. It also includes the profoundly handicapped who physically cannot work, but who certainly aren't voting to increase taxes on anybody -- they're not voting at all. I don't know have an exact stat on how many Americans fall into these categories, but the population surely isn't insignificant. It's estimated that homemakers alone make up 30-40% of the adult female population.

You are correct, Barbara, I was a bit sloppy. The reference document was based on quintiles, and therefore, the conclusion that can be derived from it in this regard is the 40% number, and that the break point is somewhere between 40% and 60%. I have seen in the recent past a more detailed breakout, and if I remember it correctly, it was somewhere between 45 and 49%. I might be able to find it tomorrow.

And in regards to the idea that I was suggesting they are all voting for Democrats, no, that wasn't my intent. It is more along the lines that the cumulative effect of our system over time has created this effect, and that includes both Democrat and Republican-controlled legislative and executive bodies. I think most all of those on this board with a more conservative bent would find this troubling, and was wondering if those who are more liberal would concur.

And you are right that those who don't pay taxes come from a broad spectrum of Americans.

Sorry about being a bit sloppy in my original post. I woke up in the wee morning hours and couldn't get back to sleep, so I decided to post a bit. Wasn't as careful as perhaps I should have been.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by minn_stat

You are correct, Barbara.

I like you already.

[minn_stat]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I'll tell you what minnstat........you shouldnt be asking any questions until after you have contributed significantly to the content of the board.

As it stands, you barely contribute anything and you show up now and then demanding answers from those of us that invest a larger chunk of our time here.

Stop being a freeloader. You want all the benefits without putting in the same amount of time and effort that we all put in.

That ain't the half of it. I also am largely responsible for a family of 6 that, according to Blue Hair, would be paying $60k in taxes if we were pulling our weight, and yet my family paid less than $10k in taxes last year.

And the auto insurance claim paid on our behalf when I had an accident about two years ago is more than all the premiums we've paid in the past five years.

[minn_stat]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

This makes me sick. We are so dumb and uninformed as a society and the media does nothing to help us.

Yeah, the problem with democratic-based government is that we largely get the government we deserve.