Get to your foxholes... The Roe v. Wade war is on... - Page 2 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

DirtyHippieUTE · 02-23-2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Given that the church allows abortion in some cases, hard to argue that they are choosing to allow "murder" in the case of rape/incest.

To argue the "molly" point of view, the LDS church position (as far as I know) is that abortion is ok in cases of incest/rape after consultation with clergy, prayer, fasting, etc...

In a very black and white sense, you could argue that it is the Lord's decision.

There have been other cases where the Lord has chosen to take a life for the benefit of another.

I don't know where I come down on this, I'm just saying that I can see a logical mormon argument that abortion is murder.

fusnik11 · 02-23-2006, 04:36 PM

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Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

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Originally Posted by fusnik11

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Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

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Originally Posted by fusnik11

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Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

It may be unconstitutional, but I'm happy to see this happen.

Abortion is murder.

yeah ok....

Is it not?

theologically....nope....

philosophically.....nope....

Care to state why you feel that way, especially theologically?

I realize that the church recognizes conditions under which if the life of the mother is in danger that it's allowed, but that is one particular statement with which I disagree.

Others can make very good arguments about it being allowed if it from the result of a rape. Again, I disagree.

Abortion is, has been and will always be murder.

thats an easy question to answer....

examine the difference in the process one must go through to be in good standing with the church when one kills someone and when one has an abortion.

i would even be comfortable in saying the church is more comfortable with abortion than killing someone in self defense.

the church allows abortions in certain examples, murder is never, ever acceptable....

and i believe when one murders someone instant disfellowship and excommunication follow.....when one has an abortion, it is to the discretion of a bishop the formal orders of the church.....

so if you believe the lds church is the lords mouth piece and has the keys to repentance, one only needs to examine how the church handles the two and one will see that the lord looks at murder and abortion much differently.....

btw i am not advocating abortion, nor am i saying its not a big deal, nor am i saying the lord endorses the practice...

All-American · 02-23-2006, 04:43 PM

I wonder if abortion is one of those practices that are allowed because of the times we live in-- similar to divorce. The Lord explicitly stated that divorce is not and never was part of God's plan, but was allowed by Moses because the people would not have been able to do without it.

I wonder if the concessions that are granted are mostly a result of the fact that abortion is so ingrained into modern day society. My suspicion is that if abortion were completely illegal, the church would not hesitate to support that stance.

As a principle, no killing "nor anything like unto it" is a pretty good guideline.

DirtyHippieUTE · 02-23-2006, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusnik11

so if you believe the lds church is the lords mouth piece and has the keys to repentance, one only needs to examine how the church handles the two and one will see that the lord looks at murder and abortion much differently.....

btw i am not advocating abortion, nor am i saying its not a big deal, nor am i saying the lord endorses the practice...

1- You've misused the word "endorses" here. To say that the punishment for one is less than the punishment for another is hardly a statement endorsing a practice.

2- The church's diciplinary practices are not that cut and dry. Circumstances are always considered. We're using the term murder too broadly. You can split hairs over degrees of murder, manslaughter, etc... I think a better word would be killing.

fusnik11 · 02-23-2006, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyHippieUTE

1- You've misused the word "endorses" here. To say that the punishment for one is less than the punishment for another is hardly a statement endorsing a practice.

what am i missing here? do you think i wrote that i said the lord endorses abortion? thats so not what i wrote....

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyHippieUTE

2- The church's diciplinary practices are not that cut and dry. Circumstances are always considered. We're using the term murder too broadly. You can split hairs over degrees of murder, manslaughter, etc... I think a better word would be killing.

circumstances when killing is involved are hardly considered. except for examples of self defense the stance of the church is actually quite cut and dry. you kill someone, you are not part of our organization. contrast that with what happens to a woman when an abortion is performed and its easy to see the position of the church.....

abortion is not murder....

as for this idea that its possibly a social phenomenom, or that the church is not cut and dry, lets look at homosexuality. the church is completely black and white on the issue, no gay sex, no gay marriage, no gay partners, and if you have one of those, no lds church for you. the church has even gone so far as to issue public statements saying they support heterosexual marriages only. if the church is part of our moral compass, why has not the church issued formal statements concerning abortion? if it really was murder, would the church not take a stance and say, abortion is wrong and if you participate you are not part of us?

Archaea · 02-23-2006, 05:14 PM

the Church has allowed baptisms of persons convicted of manslaughter and murder.

I don't imagine every member who may have killed somebody in a motor vehicle accident, even if gross negligence were deemed to have occurred, is excommunicated.

The days of cut and dried rules no longer exist.

The Church obviously does not view abortion as tantamount to murder, because although membership is threatened by participating, it's not automatic, and it's on a case by case basis.

Alkili · 02-23-2006, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

I realize that the church recognizes conditions under which if the life of the mother is in danger that it's allowed, but that is one particular statement with which I disagree.

So its better to let both the mother and baby die then have an abortion to a least save the mother?

DirtyHippieUTE · 02-23-2006, 05:23 PM

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Originally Posted by fusnik11

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Originally Posted by DirtyHippieUTE

1- You've misused the word "endorses" here. To say that the punishment for one is less than the punishment for another is hardly a statement endorsing a practice.

what am i missing here? do you think i wrote that i said the lord endorses abortion? thats so not what i wrote....

Sorry... I wasn't reading carefully. I'm supposed to be paying attention in class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusnik11

circumstances when killing is involved are hardly considered. except for examples of self defense the stance of the church is actually quite cut and dry. you kill someone, you are not part of our organization. contrast that with what happens to a woman when an abortion is performed and its easy to see the position of the church.....

What do you mean by "not a part of our organization?" No access to the temple? No access to meetings? No access to the sacrament? The standard applied to abortion is very similar to the standard applied in the case of killing someone. Contrary to what it sounds like you believe (I could be wrong) you can come back to being a member in full standing after having killed someone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusnik11

abortion is not murder....

Again, you're interchanging murder with killing. Just as there are many things to consider when looking at a case of one person killing another, there are many things to consider when looking at the case of a woman "killing" her unborn child.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusnik11

lets look at homosexuality. the church is completely black and white on the issue, no gay sex, no gay marriage, no gay partners, and if you have one of those, no lds church for you.

Again, what does "no lds church for you mean?" It's not like they're run out on a rail and told to never return. The church policy is actually quite the opposite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusnik11

if the church is part of our moral compass, why has not the church issued formal statements concerning abortion? if it really was murder, would the church not take a stance and say, abortion is wrong and if you participate you are not part of us?

They have to a certain extent. It's a question in the baptismal interview, temple recommend interview, etc...

One thing point where I think we disagree is this concept of "no church for you." That's simply not how it works. The church welcomes everyone to repent and "join the fold." Participation in certain ordinances may be suspended, but the church does not ask people to leave and not return.

non sequitur · 02-23-2006, 05:30 PM

Abortion may be distasteful, but it is not murder. A fetus is not a living human being. How can you kill something that is not technically alive?

DirtyHippieUTE · 02-23-2006, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Abortion may be distasteful, but it is not murder. A fetus is not a living human being. How can you kill something that is not technically alive?

Lots of technical jargon to be defined here.

living human being = ? Do we take the old trimester system? Do we look at the history of how early a fetus can be born and still survive?

not technically alive = ? Now we'll start splitting biology hairs.

I do not believe that the abortion question is a matter of biology and timing, it is a matter of intent and circumstance. Just as it is wrong to kill a man with "evil" intent, I believe it is wrong to kill a fetus with "evil" intent.

I think we are mixing the Mormon take on abortion with the U.S. Legal take on abortion. Never the twain shall meet.

02-23-2006, 04:43 PM	#13
All-American Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,420	I wonder if abortion is one of those practices that are allowed because of the times we live in-- similar to divorce. The Lord explicitly stated that divorce is not and never was part of God's plan, but was allowed by Moses because the people would not have been able to do without it. I wonder if the concessions that are granted are mostly a result of the fact that abortion is so ingrained into modern day society. My suspicion is that if abortion were completely illegal, the church would not hesitate to support that stance. As a principle, no killing "nor anything like unto it" is a pretty good guideline. __________________ εν αρχη ην ο λογος

02-23-2006, 05:14 PM	#16
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	the Church has allowed baptisms of persons convicted of manslaughter and murder. I don't imagine every member who may have killed somebody in a motor vehicle accident, even if gross negligence were deemed to have occurred, is excommunicated. The days of cut and dried rules no longer exist. The Church obviously does not view abortion as tantamount to murder, because although membership is threatened by participating, it's not automatic, and it's on a case by case basis. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

02-23-2006, 05:30 PM	#19
non sequitur Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,964	Abortion may be distasteful, but it is not murder. A fetus is not a living human being. How can you kill something that is not technically alive? __________________ ...You've been under attack for days, there's a soldier down, he's wounded, gangrene's setting in, 'Who's used all the penicillin?' 'Oh, Mark Paxson sir, he's got knob rot off of some tart.'" - Gareth Keenan