The Departed

[MikeWaters]

you are saying that archaeology, kind of like literary criticism, is an argument.

You find poo in a cave. It has evidence of a lot of fish being eaten. So they conclude that people of this probably ate lots of fish.

That's a reasonable conclusion. Unless it's that just these few people liked fish, and everyone else ate hamburgers.

Can you imagine excavating my house 1000 years from now? I wonder what the conclusions would be.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

you are saying that archaeology, kind of like literary criticism, is an argument.

Precisely. You said it well.

You find poo in a cave. It has evidence of a lot of fish being eaten. So they conclude that people of this probably ate lots of fish.

That's a reasonable conclusion. Unless it's that just these few people liked fish, and everyone else ate hamburgers.

Can you imagine excavating my house 1000 years from now? I wonder what the conclusions would be.

Most likely, the conclusions would be ridiculous. Imagine digging up one house in one neighborhood in one city, and then concluding what the entire region was like. This happens all the time in archaeology, and is one of my big hangups about its usefulness for large-scale explanations. Plus, everything that is impossible to identify is classified as a "religious object" and a change in pottery styles always seems to mean "invasion by a foreign people." In today's world, styles and trends change all the time for no apparent reason. Why must there always be a big explanation in the past?

(Oh yeah, I know . . . in order to get next year's grant money.) I know an archaeologist who found out on the last two days of the season's dig that his stratigraphy was all jacked up because the site was bulldozed in the 1960s, and so his findings were basically useless. He couldn't admit that he had wasted a whole year, because his funding would dry up. So, he literally made stuff up and published it. A good friend of mine left his program and dig and refused to be associated with the project. He had to find a new career. The archaeologist is still digging.

[SeattleUte]

I'm still chuckling to myself about the "self-styled DNA expert" and "protege of Hartman Rector Jr." (no less) hired by the stake president to make a presentation on how Book of Mormon peoples lived around the Great Lakes. If laughing is healthy that gem extended my life by a few months. It's worthy of a Tom Wolfe novel.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Adam

You really need to read Bonner Ritchie on institutional abuse in the church. I am sorry that you are a victim of abuse--it sounds like you are talking about something other than institutional abuse. That there are more horrible kinds of abuse, does not mean that those who study and care about the interactions between the requirements of large organizations and the circumstances of individuals part of those organizations need to abandon the language they have been using for decades.

Organizational abuse exists. Even in the church. It is unavoidable. It does not mean the church isn't true and doesn't mean you should leave the church. Ignoring it doesnt help.

The day will come Brother Adam that many will appreciate your maverick ways to rectify the LDS Church. Presently many might think you are an arrogant self inflated blowhard, myself included, but since Cougarguard is most likely your only escape and since those of us here, sans ex-ute and Tex, certainly could not be considered "the beautiful people" a sychophant you are not and by damn being a man of the people is the one thing I appreciate most about you. Regardless none of this stops me from thanking you for the change that I know in my heart of hearts your efforts will one day bring to pass.

God bless.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Umm, Mormon-lite won't work. If you haven't paid attention for the last, what 30 years, I will inform you that the Protestants have tried Protestant-lite. To disastrous results.

Do you believe that a spiritual conviction to the literalness of the historicity of the Book of Mormon is fundamentally neccesary for devotion to the LDS Church?

I have always been taught and believed that doctrine influences behavior. To me that means whatever motivates one to following Christ and seeking his will is in effect, true doctrine. If somebody wants to believe that Abraham was about to lop off Isaac's head until the angel came in like the A team, so be it. If somebody wants to believe Job is totally mythical, so be it. What matters is how that belief causes the individual to seek to do the will of Christ.

Perhaps I am wrong, but where the LDS Church must stay Mormon-Heavy is in the practical application of faith, which is lifestyle. That which motivates the practical application has plenty of wiggle room, IMO.

[MikeWaters]

GN, that's not what I am speaking to. I am speaking to Protestant churches who have committed suicide by becoming Protestant-lite.

For that matter, Catholics have severely diminished in numbers as well, though I am less certain about the causes in their case.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Perhaps I am wrong, but where the LDS Church must stay Mormon-Heavy is in the practical application of faith, which is lifestyle.

Which is pretty much what General Conference is every 6 months. Low on doctrine, high on personal application.

[BYU71]

Sometimes hopes and expectations when confronted with reality are hard to deal with. Different people choose different methods to deal with the dashed expectations. Some accept them, some are in denial about them and some become angry and lash out.

It is my humble opinion that what you see at General Conference or in Sacrament Meeting is an expectation. A what it should be, if you will. Talks about families being together forever. Admonishment to the youth to marry in the Temple and all will be well.

As I sat with a former Bishop of mine at the back of the room in Sacrament meeting one time at a fast and testimonial meeting, I expressed shock at hearing the best Priesthood teacher I ever had and his wife were getting divorced. The Bishop said he had been planning it for 5 years, as soon as his youngest was out of the house. She had slept upstairs and he downstairs for 5 years. He told me what you see here in Sacrament meeting is a fascade. These are real people with real problems.

I don't find that disheartening. My expectation of perfection amongst the Saints was dashed long ago and I have dealt with it in my own way. That is why when someone criticizes one of the brethern, I don't have a pavlovian reaction to defend and fight back.

President Monson encouraged the inactives to come back. From my perspective it would have been nice if he would have also encouraged the so called actives not to pounce on them and bring them back into the false level of "all is well" as long as you are here with us.

[MikeWaters]

So BYU71, are you going to die alone with no helpmate?

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

So BYU71, are you going to die alone with no helpmate?

I am planning on it. I think I am going to meet my eternal companion in the spirit world or in the millenium when I will be not so concerned about the physical.