For the non-believers who served missions

[MikeWaters]

My brother characterizes his entire Mormon experience as self-deception. He thought he was feeling the Spirit but now believes he manufactured those sensations within himself.

I've always had the sense that his apostasy is so fragile, so immature, so poorly thought out, that it really isn't even worth talking about. So I don't. It's not like I am going to talk him out of boofing guys.

[nuclearunderpants]

I've always had inconsistent experiences with prayer.

For example, I prayed about the BofM and finally (after many months of praying) had a powerful emotional feeling that it was true.

I prayed extensively about my pending marriage. I felt decidedly that I should break off the engagement and did so. For some reason, I decided to ignore the supposed answer to prayer and went back and patched things up. We got married and she is truly the best thing to ever happen to me. We're celebrating our 10th anniversary today. Another confusing thing here is that she counts the feeling that she should marry me as the only answer to prayer she's ever had.

The list could go on and on. I've only had a couple of experiences where I can say that prayer was positive and possibly answered. I've had countless experiences where I needed help and guidance and got nothing.

The result was a complete lack of trust in prayer as anything useful. I think that following feelings is a very poor and extremely confusing way of making decisions and living life. I now try to get the best facts possible and make a decision using logic and the likelihood of longterm happiness and success.

[Robin]

For the record, Mike asked me to leave CG, and I agreed to do so. I asked to make one last post, a sort of farewell speech, which I probably won't be able to get to until after Burning Man (starts this Monday, and goes on for one week). I said that I would refrain from posting until my 'adios' post, but what can I say? I'm weak, and the threads over the last couple of days have been so interesting that I can't resist.

Non-believers who served missions -- I'm one of them.

I served because I had a testimony of the church. I had plenty of doubts about the church as well, but at a basic level, I was a man of faith.

When I had a testimony, I thought that I would probably be a person of faith for the rest of my life. What I discovered is this -- my testimony began to quickly diminish the farther I was away from strong LDS communities. Away from my family, and away from BYU, and away from people who felt the constant need to reinforce my faith, and away from people around whom I felt the need to display my faith, I found myself in an environment where I was able to be more critical of my religion.

I didn't know it at the time, but the strength of my testimony was largely a product of my environment. I think this is a bit different than simple 'social pressure' to serve. There are plenty of kids without faith who dutifully serve. I had a 'strong' testimony of the church... until I didn't.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

My brother characterizes his entire Mormon experience as self-deception. He thought he was feeling the Spirit but now believes he manufactured those sensations within himself.

I've always had the sense that his apostasy is so fragile, so immature, so poorly thought out, that it really isn't even worth talking about. So I don't. It's not like I am going to talk him out of boofing guys.

Surely as a psychiatrist you recognize that humans convince themselves of things they want to believe all the time. Is there a human characteristic that is more prevalent and more inherantly human? What about all those robust young men who convinve themselves that blowing themselves to smithereens and taking out a bunch of innocents at the same time will land them in heaven amid a harem of beautiful vrigins? Do you think your brain is larger than theirs? Do you doubt the sincerity of their belief? Do you think your own belief system passes the test of perfect rationality?

[MikeWaters]

personally I don't think God wants us to pray about everything.

I prayed about where I should go to college. And didn't get an answer. I was confused, because it seemed like such an important thing.

Now I know the answer I received: "Make your own decision!"

[nuclearunderpants]

At what point were you able to identify God told you to make your own decision?

How can not receiving an answer lead to belief in God and the usefulness of prayer as a means of communicating with him?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Surely as a psychiatrist you recognize that humans convince themselves of things they want to believe all the time. Is there a human characteristic that is more prevalent and more inherantly human? What about all those robust young men who convinve themselves that blowing themselves to smithereens and taking out a bunch of innocents at the same time will land them in heaven amid a harem of beautiful vrigins? Do you think your brain is larger than theirs? Do you doubt the sincerity of their belief? Do you think your own belief system passes the test of perfect rationality?

Well, for one, my brother doesn't sound entirely convinced. It comes across as the convenient answer, hesitantly given, that he hopes to end all conversation about the topic. So I don't bother to ask further questions. You made that all up? Ok.

What he doesn't say is "I struggled with my feelings about the gospel and my sexual tendencies, and after a long period of prayer, counseling, and ambivalence, I have decided to embrace my sexuality, and as a result am leaving my religion behind and non longer believe in it." This is actually the truer answer in his case. But he prefers to communicate "I made it all up. There is no God. There is no Spirit." I can respect someone believing that. But I know him. And I know that is much more complex than that for him, whether he will admit to it or not. But I get the impression he very much doesn't like to think about it.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by nuclearunderpants

At what point were you able to identify God told you to make your own decision?

How can not receiving an answer lead to belief in God and the usefulness of prayer as a means of communicating with him?

Months or years later. Can't remember.

I believe that God is like a parent. He wants us to grow up and be like him. Responsible. Decision-makers. Hence he allows us to go it on our own quite a bit. This is my opinion.

Now if no prayer were ever answered, then yes, it would seem like prayer was a waste of time. I'll grant you that. But I believe, as one matures, one realizes that things aren't as black and white as "God says yes" and "God says no."

This notion of God not answering all prayers is not my own. I believe it is peppered through all kinds of talks, articles, etc.

[nuclearunderpants]

If it were only God answers prayers sometimes and remain silent at others, the situation would be easier.

My problem came when I received thoughts and feelings that felt and came the same way as my baseline answer to the Book of Mormon and those thoughts and feelings were undeniably false.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by nuclearunderpants

If it were only God answers prayers sometimes and remain silent at others, the situation would be easier.

My problem came when I received thoughts and feelings that felt and came the same way as my baseline answer to the Book of Mormon and those thoughts and feelings were undeniably false.

well, what was the question you asked God?

And I understand that you kept praying and praying, and no answer, right?

Well, some may have felt, that's my answer, make my decision.

And perhaps God finally deigned to answer your question. And we pretty much believe that we are blessed when we follow the answer given. My guess is had you not married your wife, you would have married someone else and likely been perfectly happy. Who is to know what is behind the door not opened? I personally wouldn't understand your current happiness with your wife as reason to believe that answer you received was false. For example, perhaps it was not best, but it was still pretty dang good.

The believers answer to you would be to take it to God, and pray for understanding of why this happened. What you are to learn from it. And then perhaps a situation will come, a thought will arise, and you will remember this question you asked, and realize (through the confirmation of the Holyl Ghost) that you now have the answer.