Do believers really believe?

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I generally agree with this. I think, ironically, this atheist gives human nature, including peole who "believe" in a pre-Enlightenment Judeo-Christian God, too much credit. First, most people live unexamined lives. Most people don't think critically. They don't questoin the fundamental premises of their lives. It's just not in them, or it's just too costly to do so and act upon such self-examination.

Second, the example he uses--that if Christians really believed millions of babies were being exterminated they would lay down their lives if necessary to try to stop it--is contrary to what history has shown about human nature. Just today I read the following from an essay by Ian Kershaw, Hitler's foremost biographer:

"The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference.... The general passivity which marked the most pervasive reaction—or perhaps one should say non-reaction—to the persecution and extermination of the Jews reflected above all the low level in the ranking of priorities which the fate of the Jews occupied in German consciousness.

"So far in history no other advanced society has experienced a collapse of collective moral consciousness and individual civil morality approximating to the steepness of the decline in Germany after 1933. It was above all the absence of a choice against evil."

The indifferent masses of German people weren't evil. They were just too worried about getting enough to eat, about their children's futures in war torn Germany, about loved ones on the front, about heating their homes, to give much thought or sacrifice to save the millions they knew were being exterminated, including children. My sense is the same thing is true about Christians who truly believe abortion is murder. They aren't going to revolt against government to stop it because they're distracted by their own immediate problems. They're indiffernt, but not because they don't believe it's murder.

That being said, I think non-sequitor got it right in responding to tooblue's gibberish. Outside of Mormonism's "I know. . ." culture, belief and faith are considered the realistic end of a commitment to spirituality; purporting to "know" a supernatural element is considered a self-deluded immaturity, or, as Barabara says, an ironic expression of insecure faith. I don't think this atheist makes any more convincing argument against the legitimacy of belief or faith than tooblue makes one for "KNOWING" God lives.

If it is gibberish then contend with me directly. Barbara's comments stem from an assumption in regards to my motivation. You have laced her comments with inflammatory language so as to deflect from your own insecurity that compels you to tell another person what they can or cannot know. For every finger you point at me there are three pointing back at you.

Again, I know there is a God.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

tb, I love you, but methinks thou dost protest too much. If you know the Church to be true, then rest assured in that fact...and who cares what a couple of apostates think.

My comments are not protestation. Please do not make assumption as to my motivation. You can come right out and ask me.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

If we go with what Joseph Smith defined as a perfect testimony of God, i.e. there have only been a few who are capable of denying the Holy Ghost as only a few truly have a knowledge of it, then I'd say you're in pretty distinct company, tooblue.

I guess that assumes that you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet.

You're right in that it's not essential to me to know if you know. I'm just observing what I see as conflicting ideas (so many members claiming to "know" while J.S. teaching that few people know).

Did I say I have a perfect testimony of God? No. Therefore I am in no more distinct company that you. In my estimation you misunderstand J.S.'s teaching. He is speaking of a few and you assume to allow it to speak of many. That is unfortunate extrapolation IMO.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Remarkably well put.

Therefore my argument is valid.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Did I say I have a perfect testimony of God? No.

Then you don't "know". Alma says so, Joseph Smith says so.

What's so distasteful about exercising faith?

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Then you don't "know". Alma says so, Joseph Smith says so.

What's so distasteful about exercising faith?

There is nothing distasteful about exercising faith. You wrote about a perfect testimony, not about my statement that 'I know'. I don't have a perfect testimony but I know there is a God. Also, again, you are one more person compelled to tell me what I can and cannot know.

And yet I am insecure?

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I generally agree with this. I think, ironically, this atheist gives human nature, including peole who "believe" in a pre-Enlightenment Judeo-Christian God, too much credit. First, most people live unexamined lives. Most people don't think critically. They don't questoin the fundamental premises of their lives. It's just not in them, or it's just too costly to do so and act upon such self-examination.

Second, the example he uses--that if Christians really believed millions of babies were being exterminated they would lay down their lives if necessary to try to stop it--is contrary to what history has shown about human nature. Just today I read the following from an essay by Ian Kershaw, Hitler's foremost biographer:

"The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference.... The general passivity which marked the most pervasive reaction—or perhaps one should say non-reaction—to the persecution and extermination of the Jews reflected above all the low level in the ranking of priorities which the fate of the Jews occupied in German consciousness.

"So far in history no other advanced society has experienced a collapse of collective moral consciousness and individual civil morality approximating to the steepness of the decline in Germany after 1933. It was above all the absence of a choice against evil."

The indifferent masses of German people weren't evil. They were just too worried about getting enough to eat, about their children's futures in war torn Germany, about loved ones on the front, about heating their homes, to give much thought or sacrifice to save the millions they knew were being exterminated, including children. My sense is the same thing is true about Christians who truly believe abortion is murder. They aren't going to revolt against government to stop it because they're distracted by their own immediate problems. They're indiffernt, but not because they don't believe it's murder.

That being said, I think non-sequitor got it right in responding to tooblue's gibberish. Outside of Mormonism's "I know. . ." culture, belief and faith are considered the realistic end of a commitment to spirituality; purporting to "know" a supernatural element is considered a self-deluded immaturity, or, as Barabara says, an ironic expression of insecure faith. I don't think this atheist makes any more convincing argument against the legitimacy of belief or faith than tooblue makes one for "KNOWING" God lives.

SeattleUte: The Religion forums Post Modernist. Now that's ironic

[Tex]

That was a very unoriginal article. It's just a restating of Matthew 7:16-23.

To the question of religion in politics: it's quite simple. Americans want to a certain level of comfort understanding what motivates their president, what guides him when he has to make the difficult decisions that only presidents face.

They trust folks with religions bearings more than those without because it provides a measure of that understanding, to say nothing of the implied moral code that is supposed to go with it.

There is no great mystery here.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by tooblue

There is nothing distasteful about exercising faith. You wrote about a perfect testimony, not about my statement that 'I know'. I don't have a perfect testimony but I know there is a God. Also, again, you are one more person compelled to tell me what I can and cannot know.

If you know what you know then just let it go. Who cares what anybody thinks?

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

If you know what you know then just let it go. Who cares what anybody thinks?

That's not the point.

The point is you've guys like SU who've made a hell of fun time for themselves on here exhausting large amounts of energy and time trying to undermine what we believe.

It gets a little annoying after awhile Barbara.

A faith in which a person holds sacred and dear to their being is something that SU pisses on and does so in a brazen manner, while not expecting any blowback is just not rational. Any reaction he gets makes him smile and he revels in needling those of the faith of which he used to be a part of.

Personally I mostly ignore SU now when it comes to religious issues because his true intent about the kind of person he is and the goals he has to undermine others faiths was revealed a long time ago.