Matador stirring the pot

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Over here, I get slammed for suggesting that gays are the unknown "other" to most. As if every one of these guys has multiple gay relatives and friends like ERCougar suggested.

SoCalCoug is for Prop 8, I think.
tick is for it.
my dad is for it.

It's very clear that it has been very EASY for the church to rally members to its side, and they have bought into the fear very quickly, and are propagating it to everyone else.

Mine's a "soft" support - Somehow, you have to reconcile your personal feelings with the strong stance of the church.

I acknowledge that I don't have all the answers. I have my personal feelings, which haven't really changed. I still dislike Prop. 8 in principle, but with how strong the church is supporting it, it does give me pause. Maybe it's a faith thing (sorry, SU, I know you won't like that answer).

The ONLY justification for Prop 8 that I've heard that makes any sense is that allowing gay marriage results in a fundamental, irreversible change in the nature of a marriage - going from a union tied by gender to one that is genderless. I think there are good sociological reasons for a union of the two genders into a family unit, and I generally agree that gender-specific marriage should be fostered by our society.

Therefore, coupled with my (unreasonable, but faith-based) belief that the First Presidency consists of prophets who are inspired by God, that is the only way I can justify to myself supporting Prop. 8.

However, to date, my support for Prop 8 has been entirely limited to allowing my mother-in-law to put a "Yes on Prop 8" sign in my yard. I will likely end up making some calls, though.

All of the other justifications I have heard for Prop 8 are crap. Also, I strongly feel that the whole Prop 8 thing has backfired a bit, in that it is giving the homophobic bigots a license to hate, sanctioned by the church.

There's a real conflict here between the desire of some LDS church members to do what the First Presidency says is right, and what they think in their own minds and hearts is right. We each have to try to resolve that conflict in our own way. I certainly don't condemn anyone who resolves the conflict differently than I have, and I still have strong negative feelings for the proposition.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

A few also said they'd prefer their child be born with downs syndrome instead of gay.

That thread is an abomination. Hardliners focusing on all the wrong things.

BRM, as much as he is slandered here, made a great point that has always stayed with me when discussing matters of the Gospel.......Those who have the Spirit do not hang doggedly to a point of doctrine or philosophy for no other reason than to come off victorious in a disagreement.

These CB threads where people jump all over those who have sinned, struggling, honor code violators, etc....and justify it because, hey, the rules are the rules...how sad.

This ia quote from my Wall of Shame. It is from Cougrrrs Roll. I always think of it when these CB arguments pop up...if they would simply stop and think about what they are saying, sheesh...it just sounds so ridiculous.

"Homosexuals are VERY promiscuous. If one gets the disease, it quickly spreads to many. Not so with heterosexual people, the disease spreads much slower and is much easier to track down and control...Homosexual sex is not meant to happen. When it does the "physiology and mechanics" of it results in a much higher probability of transmission of the disease than does normal heterosexual activity. Something to do with tearing and bleeding. But this is also the result of multiple sex partners, one right after the other. Thus the disease spreads to many homosexual individuals in one day...Nothing like this happened among heterosexuals." Cougrrrs Roll, Jan 15, 2008

[Jim Swarthout]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

A few also said they'd prefer their child be born with downs syndrome instead of gay.

Well that's because kids with Down's were especially valiant in the PME. In fact some, according to faith promoting rumors, actually escorted Lucifer out of . . . wherever they were.

Homosexuals, on the other hand were less valiant. That's why they were born gay. You see, God delivers people to earth in a form that is directly proportional to their service in the PME. That's why we denied Africans the priesthood and that's one reason why you should vote for Prop. 8.

(sarcasm inserted here)

[CardiacCoug]

I'm amazed about a few things from the homophobic posters on CB:

1. The complete lack of empathy and compassion for gays and their families -- they basically think of a gay person as a hard-core criminal -- somebody deserving of the death penalty, even. I told one guy yesterday that he needs to move to Iran (he said he favored legal prosecution for both adultery and homosexuality). How they can square these attitudes with the gospel of Jesus Christ is beyond me.

2. The irrational fear of what may happen to kids if they see "PDA" between gays. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a child having some type of general understanding that some people are attracted to others of the same gender. The way these guys want to keep their kids totally sheltered is crazy.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

A few also said they'd prefer their child be born with downs syndrome instead of gay.

On the bright side, at least they seem to be accepting the possibility of being born gay...

[NorCal Cat]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Over here, I get slammed for suggesting that gays are the unknown "other" to most. As if every one of these guys has multiple gay relatives and friends like ERCougar suggested.

SoCalCoug is for Prop 8, I think.
tick is for it.
my dad is for it.

It's very clear that it has been very EASY for the church to rally members to its side, and they have bought into the fear very quickly, and are propagating it to everyone else.

Bought into what fear?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by NorCal Cat

Bought into what fear?

Everyone
everyone around here
everyone is so near
It's holding on

Everyone
Everyone is so near
Everyone has got the fear
It's holding on

--The National Anthem

institutional control via groupthink is a very powerful tool. mikewaters is right. so is thom yorke.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

CB is brimming with a lot of young white males brimming with testoserone. So their rhetoric is heated. But you are kidding yourself if you think they don't represent the trure face of the LDS Church.

Bigots recognize each other, don't they?

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Your comment that support for Prop. 8 was emboldening the bigots suggests that Church leaders are more righteous than the bigots and the bigots being emboldened is an unfortunate by-product, that in a sense bigots are even taking advantage of church leaders who are at worst guilty of naivete. You need to belly up and acknowkedge that the Church leaders are themselves as bigoted as any of the people on CB you deplore, the king bigots and lords of the minion bigots, and therefore more despicable than the bigots on CB.

It takes a bigot to recognize a bigot, doesn't it?

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

It takes a bigot to recognize a bigot, doesn't it?

I'm going to consider the source and let the ad hominem epithet pass. I'm pleased you agree there's no rational basis for calling CB posters arguing in favor of Prop. 8 bigots and not recognizing LDS leaders who believe th same thing are no less bigots. It's the first sign of integrity or intelligence I've seen from you yet.