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Levin · 07-16-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

They were cast out, isolated from the insular, self-satisfied, petty and hypocritical society into which they were born.

Interesting -- you focused more on the society's effect on the departed; I focused more on the departed's effect on themselves.

creekster · 07-16-2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levin

Interesting -- you focused more on the society's effect on the departed; I focused more on the departed's effect on themselves.

As did Tolstoy. He was critical of society but Vornsky and Anna's problems were hteir own doing.

Levin · 07-16-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creekster

As did Tolstoy. He was critical of society but Vornsky and Anna's problems were hteir own doing.

But with Tolstoy, at least in reading the novel, I never thought he was sitting in judgment of Anna. I sensed an abiding affection for his heroine, wishing he could shield her from the consequences of her decisions. But I never sensed he thought she made the wrong decisions.

SeattleUte · 07-16-2008, 05:54 PM

I disagree with both of you. For example, Tolstoy didn't approve of Anna's isolation from ther son by Russian law and society and religion. It's easy to sit and judge today, what with no-fault divorce, joint custody, laws favoring custody, particularly mothers. She was caught in a terrible trap made by her hidebound, judgmental and backward society.

Anyway, who cares what Tolstoy "intended?" The book now belongs to the ages. Tolstoy said a lot of things he may not have intended because he was trapped in his age and his book was not. I'm sure many careful readers of AK today are more compassionate for Anna and Vronsky than Tolstoy was in his own mind. I find the epigraph to the book very puzzling and judgmental sounding unless I just don't get it.

Tolstoy said more than he realized. Like all great novels this one has no easy answers. It more raises the great issues than anything else.

creekster · 07-16-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I disagree with both of you. For example, Tolstoy didn't approve of Anna's isolation from ther son by Russian law and society and religion. It's easy to sit and judge today, what with no-fault divorce, joint custody, laws favoring custody, particularly mothers. She was caught in a terrible trap made by her hidebound, judgmental and backward society.

Anyway, who cares what Tolstoy "intended?" The book now belongs to the ages. Tolstoy said a lot of things he may not have intended because he was trapped in his age and his book was not. I'm sure many careful readers of AK today are more compassionate for Anna and Vronsky than Tolstoy was in his own mind. I find the epigraph to the book very puzzling and judgmental sounding unless I just don't get it.

Btw, SU, compairng me to the kindly abbott from TBK was one of the nicer compliments I think I have recevied. DO you need a loan or something?
Tolstoy said more than he realized. Like all great novels this one has no easy answers. It more raises the great issues than anything else.

I am not trying to judge them, and I recognize TOlstoy's criticism of Russian society, but Tolstoy ultimately, through the rise of Levin, as Levin put it, and otherwsie, shows the descent of Anna and Vornsky and how the relatiojship itslef was doomed. THeirs was a tremendous passion that had to manifest; it could not be denmied, and she was willing to sacrifice everyhting for it. But in doing so, she also lost the very thing she was trying to obtain and this was not as a result of social standards (except to the extent that they informed her own view of herself, I suppose) but as a result of her own choices which could not be changed, but which were doomed to failure. My heart ached for Anna, but I htink even she would agree that it was her chocies and not the society that put her where she ended up.

Levin · 07-16-2008, 06:12 PM

I was puzzled by the epigraph too, but you know its source: "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Romans 12:19. Interesting that Tolstoy only quoted the "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" portion, when if he had quoted the entire passage, the clear message would be the exact opposite than the one you take from it: people shouldn't take judgment and vengeance into your own hads; let God worry about it.

SeattleUte · 07-16-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creekster

I am not trying to judge them, and I recognize TOlstoy's criticism of Russian society, but Tolstoy ultimately, through the rise of Levin, as Levin put it, and otherwsie, shows the descent of Anna and Vornsky and how the relatiojship itslef was doomed. THeirs was a tremendous passion that had to manifest; it could not be denmied, and she was willing to sacrifice everyhting for it. But in doing so, she also lost the very thing she was trying to obtain and this was not as a result of social standards (except to the extent that they informed her own view of herself, I suppose) but as a result of her own choices which could not be changed, but which were doomed to failure. My heart ached for Anna, but I htink even she would agree that it was her chocies and not the society that put her where she ended up.

I don't disagree with this. As for Anna, strong, well-adjusted people would always rather believe they suffered a fate of their own making, karma, than that they were totally victimized.

Levin · 07-16-2008, 06:16 PM

The subject in the epigraph, IMO, are our own actions. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" -- The "I" is not God, it's not society, and it's not Tolstoy the author. It's us; our choices. And that's where I think Creekster hit it on the head: Tolstoy's heart ached for Anna too, but there was nothing he could do.

Levin · 07-16-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I don't disagree with this. As for Anna, strong, well-adjusted people would always rather believe they suffered a fate of their own making, karma, than that they were totally victimized.

I agree with you that Anna was victimized; but the choice the propelled all others was her marriage to Alexei. And she did that for security and status. After the marriage, she was a victim of many things; but it's her choice to marry Alexei where I don't think she was a victim. Yes, she wanted status and wealth, and her society demanded that she try to maintain them, but . . .

RockyBalboa · 07-16-2008, 06:46 PM

I've read only 7 books on that list.

07-16-2008, 05:54 PM	#34
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	I disagree with both of you. For example, Tolstoy didn't approve of Anna's isolation from ther son by Russian law and society and religion. It's easy to sit and judge today, what with no-fault divorce, joint custody, laws favoring custody, particularly mothers. She was caught in a terrible trap made by her hidebound, judgmental and backward society. Anyway, who cares what Tolstoy "intended?" The book now belongs to the ages. Tolstoy said a lot of things he may not have intended because he was trapped in his age and his book was not. I'm sure many careful readers of AK today are more compassionate for Anna and Vronsky than Tolstoy was in his own mind. I find the epigraph to the book very puzzling and judgmental sounding unless I just don't get it. Tolstoy said more than he realized. Like all great novels this one has no easy answers. It more raises the great issues than anything else. __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster

07-16-2008, 06:12 PM	#36
Levin Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,484	I was puzzled by the epigraph too, but you know its source: "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Romans 12:19. Interesting that Tolstoy only quoted the "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" portion, when if he had quoted the entire passage, the clear message would be the exact opposite than the one you take from it: people shouldn't take judgment and vengeance into your own hads; let God worry about it. __________________ "Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12

07-16-2008, 06:16 PM	#38
Levin Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,484	The subject in the epigraph, IMO, are our own actions. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" -- The "I" is not God, it's not society, and it's not Tolstoy the author. It's us; our choices. And that's where I think Creekster hit it on the head: Tolstoy's heart ached for Anna too, but there was nothing he could do. __________________ "Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12

07-16-2008, 06:46 PM	#40
RockyBalboa Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 7,297	I've read only 7 books on that list. __________________ Masquerading as Cougarguards very own genius dumbass since 05'.