September Dawn - The PR Campaign

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by All-American

Ok, one vote for Hyrum for all Mormons going to hell. Thanks for your contribution-- next comment, please?

lol! I grudgingly admit that I think Hyrum made several good points.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by hyrum

He cried? As the Leader of the Mormon Militia, Leader of the LDS Church, Federal Agent over the Indians in Utah Territory, and Governor of the Territory, it was required of him to immediately launch a thorough investigation, see to it that the victims were properly buried, arrange for proper legal custody of the child survivors, and properly account for the emigrants property. Then promptly punish those who did order and plan the massacre, as something of that scale does not happen by individual impulse, like a bar fight. Brigham Young had the authority to do all those things, but he did absolutely none of them. Those who were on the scene were not only allowed to go free, they were allowed to profit from the event -- many of the belongings of the Fancher Party (livestock, wagons, even clothes) wound up on the farms and in the homes of those involved. So its not such a strecth to believe he had no interest in knowing the true line of responsibility.

If you're looking for a smoking gun of an order, direct or implied, of course any of that kind of evidence has been destroyed. 20 years went by before the trial of John D. Lee, and many records were not-so-mysteriously missing by then. Even personal journals of the time had pages missing, etc, as some of the later documenters were members who felt they would rather destroy the truth than present something that might caste the LDS Church in bad light (tendency mentioned by Juanita Brooks).

So the movie producers and writers, like the thorough research of Will Bagley, concludes that Brigham Young was implicated, and the movie, apparently, reflects that opinion. Its a movie, not a documentary, so they can only take one position as to the chronology of events and present that.

BY was involved in the coverup. And he helped set the stage for the disaster with his rhetoric. And he manipulated Lee's trial like a seasoned mob boss. But there is still ZERO hard evidence that he ordered the massacre. None whatsoever.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by YOhio

lol! I grudgingly admit that I think Hyrum made several good points.

I see Hyrum as that guy in the south park cartoon who shouts out "well what WAS the rcorrect asnwer then?" to which satan's admin asst. says "Moor-mons, the correct answer was Moor-mon."

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by creekster

I see Hyrum as that guy in the south park cartoon who shouts out "well what WAS the rcorrect asnwer then?" to which satan's admin asst. says "Moor-mons, the correct answer was Moor-mon."

That made me laugh. See Hyrum at the 13 second mark.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by YOhio

lol! I grudgingly admit that I think Hyrum made several good points.

And I frankly admit that I didn't bother reading it. Anything longer than a line or two from Hyrum is so rarely worth my time that I have learned to conserve my life instead. He could be writing his confession and asking to rejoin the church and I would probably miss it.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by All-American

And I frankly admit that I didn't bother reading it. Anything longer than a line or two from Hyrum is so rarely worth my time that I have learned to conserve my life instead. He could be writing his confession and asking to rejoin the church and I would probably miss it.

I don't believe he was ever a member.

[Archaea]

Hyrum is just another run of the mill anti with a little bit of info at his fingertips. A little bit of info is a dangerous thing.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by YOhio

I don't believe he was ever a member.

See? I even missed that.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by hyrum

He cried? As the Leader of the Mormon Militia, Leader of the LDS Church, Federal Agent over the Indians in Utah Territory, and Governor of the Territory, it was required of him to immediately launch a thorough investigation, see to it that the victims were properly buried, arrange for proper legal custody of the child survivors, and properly account for the emigrants property. Then promptly punish those who did order and plan the massacre, as something of that scale does not happen by individual impulse, like a bar fight. Brigham Young had the authority to do all those things, but he did absolutely none of them. Those who were on the scene were not only allowed to go free, they were allowed to profit from the event -- many of the belongings of the Fancher Party (livestock, wagons, even clothes) wound up on the farms and in the homes of those involved. So its not such a strecth to believe he had no interest in knowing the true line of responsibility.

If you're looking for a smoking gun of an order, direct or implied, of course any of that kind of evidence has been destroyed. 20 years went by before the trial of John D. Lee, and many records were not-so-mysteriously missing by then. Even personal journals of the time had pages missing, etc, as some of the later documenters were members who felt they would rather destroy the truth than present something that might caste the LDS Church in bad light (tendency mentioned by Juanita Brooks).

So the movie producers and writers, like the thorough research of Will Bagley, concludes that Brigham Young was implicated, and the movie, apparently, reflects that opinion. Its a movie, not a documentary, so they can only take one position as to the chronology of events and present that.

What you are discussing isn't at all pertinent to whether or not BY ordered the MMM. You are presenting evidence that he didn't properly investigate the MMM or prosecute the MMM; you haven't presented a shred of evidence that supports the theory that BY ordered the MMM, which is what this discussion involves.

BY crying upon hearing the news of the MMM is, indeed, evidence that BY was saddened by the news of the MMM (which suggests he didn't order it) (and it isn't as if this is the only evidence either, it is just what you have decided to focus on).

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

BY crying upon hearing the news of the MMM is, indeed, evidence that BY was saddened by the news of the MMM (which suggests he didn't order it) (and it isn't as if this is the only evidence either, it is just what you have decided to focus on).

That he cried when he heard about it isn't evidence he didn't order it. Pathos or some ironic form of remorse is not altogether unheard of among murderers by any stretch.