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YOhio · 08-13-2007, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Other than the assertion that BY ordered the hit, what assertions do you disagree with?

I would have to see the movie to combat specific assertions the movie makes. Without seeing the movie, here are the things I'm concerned about:

1- The habit of filmmakers to present a dichotomy between good and evil, i.e. the Baker-Fancher party being 100% pure and the Mormon's being 100% evil.

2- The lack of context the film will provide. Specifically in relation to the political situation surrounding the Mormons, the treatment the LDS received in the Eastern United States, the context of BY's sayings, Parley Pratt's murder, and the behavior of LDS towards other settler parties.

3- It's silly to make such a serious and important movie and then center it around a love story. I really don't like that approach.

It appears that Novak watched the film without attempting to understand the entire context of the massacre. I'm not saying that my above stated concerns justify the massacre, but to not show them in the film gives a distorted history. Not all Mormon's who lived in 1850's Utah were evil, murdering barbarians. I will be surprised if filmgoer's leave this film with that impression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Can you really blame Jon Voight for reaching the conclusion that BY ordered the MMM? Granted, it has never been proved, but neither has it been proved that O.J. slit his wife's throat. Most objective people who examine the facts would conclude the BY was involved.

You're the one who said that Voigt didn't implicate BY in MMM. I could care less what he thinks. Your final statement is a tad overstated.

SeattleUte · 08-13-2007, 04:00 AM

I recently went to a museum not far from my house called "The Nordic Museum." The neighborhood on the other side from where I live of the canal between Lake Union and Puget Sound was settled by Norwegians, Danes, Swedish, etc.

Two things at the museum made me think of Mormons. First, the depictions of Jesus were the same as I grew up with as a child, including a sculpture exactly like the Christus that kept recurring. It turns out the Christus is a replica of a famous sculpture by a Scandinavian that has been replicated many times. It made me think of how important Scandinavians were among the earliest Mormons, whose ancestors still are prevalent--all those Jensens, Sorensens, Swensens, etc.

Second, there was a large old map of the United States painted on a plywood board hung on the wall. Abstracts were written all across the map describing important events in U.S. history. At a spot in southern Utah there was written, "Brigham Young orders the slaughter of 120 settlers from Arkansas by Mormons disguised as Piute Indians and Piute allies." It made me think that maybe outside my bred in the bone Mormon perspective rightly or wrongly Brigham Young's participation is taken as more of a given than I ever realized.

All-American · 08-13-2007, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I recently went to a museum not far from my house called "The Nordic Museum." The neighborhood on the other side from where I live of the canal between Lake Union and Puget Sound was settled by Norwegians, Danes, Swedish, etc.

Two things at the museum made me think of Mormons. First, the depictions of Jesus were the same as I grew up with as a child, including a sculpture exactly like the Christus that kept recurring. It turns out the Christus is a replica of a famous sculpture by a Scandinavian that has been replicated many times. It made me think of how important Scandinavians were among the earliest Mormons, whose ancestors still are prevalent--all those Jensens, Sorensens, Swensens, etc.

Second, there was a large old map of the United States painted on a plywood board hung on the wall. Abstracts were written all across the map describing important events in U.S. history. At a spot in southern Utah there was written, "Brigham Young orders the slaughter of 120 settlers from Arkansas by Mormons disguised as Piute Indians and Piute allies." It made me think that maybe outside my bred in the bone Mormon perspective rightly or wrongly Brigham Young's participation is taken as more of a given than I ever realized.

Thorvaldsen, "Christus." I admit, he's probably a better sculptor than I am.

Here's the original. Note the twelve apostles flanking the aisles, as well.

Sleeping in EQ · 08-13-2007, 02:50 PM

I'll be seeing the film, and probably with an agnostic colleague or two.

Archaea · 08-13-2007, 04:04 PM

Two things are discouraging me from seeing it. First, the "evil looking portrait" of Brigham Young makes it appear to be a hit piece.

Second, comments from Voigt make it sound as if they know withtout a shadow of a doubt that BY ordered the manslaughter. He may have created the social atmosphere or at least a part thereof, but nobody can honestly say, given the time consuming and limited communication we had over distance what BY knew. So, if a person is adamant in his conclusions, this movie cannot be profound. It sounds like a B-rated movie.

BYU71 · 08-13-2007, 04:30 PM

When it comes to movies with religious themes, I don't think people really believe what is in the movie anyway.

I know when I watched "Witness", it didn't change my mind and make me think the Ammish had hot looking women who were willing to show their hooters.

FMCoug · 08-13-2007, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU71

I know when I watched "Witness", it didn't change my mind and make me think the Ammish had hot looking women who were willing to show their hooters.

Having served in Amish country in one of my areas, I can testify to the truthfulness of this post.

MikeWaters · 08-13-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMCoug

Having served in Amish country in one of my areas, I can testify to the truthfulness of this post.

do they show their hooters or not?

SeattleUte · 08-13-2007, 04:41 PM

What a beautiful chruch. Thanks, AA. Where is it?

Archaea · 08-13-2007, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Other than the assertion that BY ordered the hit, what assertions do you disagree with?

Can you really blame Jon Voight for reaching the conclusion that BY ordered the MMM? Granted, it has never been proved, but neither has it been proved that O.J. slit his wife's throat. Most objective people who examine the facts would conclude the BY was involved.

Juanita Brooks didn't believe that, and she was objective. You might believe McMurtry is not objective, but the McMurtry approach appears more scholarly than most.

Point to me an objective historian who is certain BY ordered and knew of the murders.

08-13-2007, 04:00 AM	#12
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	I recently went to a museum not far from my house called "The Nordic Museum." The neighborhood on the other side from where I live of the canal between Lake Union and Puget Sound was settled by Norwegians, Danes, Swedish, etc. Two things at the museum made me think of Mormons. First, the depictions of Jesus were the same as I grew up with as a child, including a sculpture exactly like the Christus that kept recurring. It turns out the Christus is a replica of a famous sculpture by a Scandinavian that has been replicated many times. It made me think of how important Scandinavians were among the earliest Mormons, whose ancestors still are prevalent--all those Jensens, Sorensens, Swensens, etc. Second, there was a large old map of the United States painted on a plywood board hung on the wall. Abstracts were written all across the map describing important events in U.S. history. At a spot in southern Utah there was written, "Brigham Young orders the slaughter of 120 settlers from Arkansas by Mormons disguised as Piute Indians and Piute allies." It made me think that maybe outside my bred in the bone Mormon perspective rightly or wrongly Brigham Young's participation is taken as more of a given than I ever realized. __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster

08-13-2007, 02:50 PM	#14
Sleeping in EQ Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The People's Republic of Monsanto Posts: 3,085	I'll be seeing the film, and probably with an agnostic colleague or two. __________________ "Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

08-13-2007, 04:04 PM	#15
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	Two things are discouraging me from seeing it. First, the "evil looking portrait" of Brigham Young makes it appear to be a hit piece. Second, comments from Voigt make it sound as if they know withtout a shadow of a doubt that BY ordered the manslaughter. He may have created the social atmosphere or at least a part thereof, but nobody can honestly say, given the time consuming and limited communication we had over distance what BY knew. So, if a person is adamant in his conclusions, this movie cannot be profound. It sounds like a B-rated movie. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

08-13-2007, 04:41 PM	#19
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	What a beautiful chruch. Thanks, AA. Where is it? __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster

08-13-2007, 04:30 PM	#16
BYU71 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,084	When it comes to movies with religious themes, I don't think people really believe what is in the movie anyway. I know when I watched "Witness", it didn't change my mind and make me think the Ammish had hot looking women who were willing to show their hooters.