Do you believe being gay is a choice

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by KiteRider

I'm in no position to guess how much of the ape response was Pavlovian. Along a similar line, perhaps the jealous ape pulled the lever in one case, because there was a thief, but accepted the food redistribution in the other case because he felt the human was an alpha-ape. Maybe this has nothing to do with reason and morality and everything to do with ape hierarchical order.

As a non-scientist with limited time, I have to choose my level of engagement with these issues so distant to my life and work. I watch Nova, and generally accept it as accurate reflection of current scientific thought. Of course I can second guess this stuff (which is fun), but I am in no position to dismiss.

According to Nova, Ape Genius 1. Some apes have sex for more complex reasons other than 'it feels good.' 2. Apes demonstrate a limited range of higher reasoning and intuition. 3. Apes demonstrate a primitive form of morality, which shows up in the form of empathy (emotional response to the other's grief, happiness, etc) and aid (apes have evolved to help one another, even when that help doesn't seem to benefit the helper). 4. Apes demonstrate a primitive form of culture (they make and use tools, and they pass this knowledge on by observation).

The point of all of this is that there exists a body of scientific evidence that suggests that the animals most genetically related to humans demonstrate a lot of human characteristics, including reason, empathy and culture. They also happen to have sex with both male and female partners. Given the presence of these other human-like behaviors it is harder to relegate their sexual behavior to the realm of pure instinct.

Maybe the scientists are wrong on this one, but I have no authority to 2nd guess them (outside of how it might amuse me). I respect their work and their expertise.

I think that human factor undermines the study and research. The observed reasoning is in part due to conditioning (taught and learned behavior) and is not a purely natural response on the part of the apes. That's not to say that animals in the wild do not engage in sex acts with the wrong sex of thier respective species. However it is a stretch to suggest that they are aware they are having hetero or homosexual sex. Instinctively animals are merely sexual.

Furthermore, such studies prove to underline the role environment and learned actions play in behavior.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by tooblue

I think that human factor undermines the study and research. The observed reasoning is in part due to conditioning (taught and learned behavior) and is not a purely natural response on the part of the apes. That's not to say that animals in the wild do not engage in sex acts with the wrong sex of thier respective species. However it is a stretch to suggest that they are aware they are having hetero or homosexual sex. Instinctively animals are merely sexual.

Furthermore, such studies prove to underline the role environment and learned actions play in behavior.

It's amazing to me how some people can so quickly and easily dismiss the results of scientific research without a fair and thorough review of the research.

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

It's amazing to me how some people can so quickly and easily dismiss the results of scientific research without a fair and thorough review of the research.

I have a tendency to do this too. I find myself taking the position of assuming the scientist screwed up somewhere instead of assuming they did things right. Perhaps I should re-think my assumptions.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

It's amazing to me how some people can so quickly and easily dismiss the results of scientific research without a fair and thorough review of the research.

tooblue: there's no such thing as truth, it's all lies.

tooblue's "inovation" is to use science's very virtue against it. Science holds that there is no holy grail called "truth," attainable by humans. Tooblue's perverse formulation is to say "Aha! The science keeps looking for truth, keeps changing; you see, there's no truth." Or, maybe more accurately, "You see, my truth, Joseph Smith's truth, is as good as yours, science."

[BarbaraGordon]

We have bestiality, homosexuality, heterosexuality, bi-sexuality. Sexuality is not binary.

Also asexuality. Though incidence is estimated at less than 1%.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

It's amazing to me how some people can so quickly and easily dismiss the results of scientific research without a fair and thorough review of the research.

It's no about dismissing the results ... I don't contend with the results I contend with what the 'truths' from the results others would choose to impose upon me. Seriously, I have seen the same program on Nova that kite sites and read about the results and so therefore I am likely as informed as he, you or anyone else here on the subject.

This whole notion that one must be an expert and have spent countless hours pooring over research in order to contend with what is potrayed in a television program or article in Scientific American is about as useful as cali's lament of "why are you even a Mormon".

Honestly, try to see the hole in the doughnut.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

tooblue: there's no such thing as truth, it's all lies.

tooblue's "inovation" is to use science's very virtue against it. Science holds that there is no holy grail called "truth," attainable by humans. Tooblue's perverse formulation is to say "Aha! The science keeps looking for truth, keeps changing; you see, there's no truth." Or, maybe more accurately, "You see, my truth, Joseph Smith's truth, is as good as yours, science."

Do I put words in your mouth? Do I pretend to convey what you truly mean? It's interesting that instead of engaging my ideas from the get go you attempt to belittle them. Your insecurity is appearant. Step forward and render an opinion.

[Hsaru]

my rudimentary thoughts on the issue:

I think homosexuality is NOT a choice, to a point, I think genetics can sometimes cause people to have homosexual tendencies but experiences early in life also can affect whether they become homosexual or not.

I don't think some people are giving enough credit to animals, they've evolved instincts/learned to build nests, burrows, ect, to give them and their offspring the best chance to survive and continue to reproduce. I'm sure they've developed an instinct that they should focus their energies on trying to reproduce with the opposite sex.

Because we are an intelligent race we don't shun other humans who don't contribute to our ability to survive and reproduce, whether it be elderly, homosexual, disabled, crippled. This is a good thing for obvious reasons.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Honestly, try to see the hole in the doughnut.

LOL. I knew there was going to be doughnut hole somewhere in your response.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

LOL. I knew there was going to be doughnut hole somewhere in your response.

Just don't fill the donut hole, please.