Answering Seattles challenge ...

[tooblue]

I have no desire to convince but I will offer a completely honest and valid opinion on the matter …

Unfortunately for you SU I am not an apologist. Your unsophisticated reading comprehension skills leave one wanting. I am not arguing my point to rationalize the position of the church from an intellectually dishonest position. I am arguing from an intellectually sound personal position based on unfortunate events in my life. In fact I have not once mentioned the church!

In your arrogance you fail to pick up on some key consistencies in my opinions on the subject. Anyone who says I am in over my head is ignorant of the history of this board and the many things I have said over a long period of time. The idiocy of their bantering should not embolden you to even greater heights of arrogant and willful ignorance in the hopes of continued mockery.

As I have stated in the past I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I am not embarrassed to admit that I was sexually abused when I was a small child. It’s important that I stand up and share my story confidently, along with the opinions on sexuality that come with it. I have spent a good deal of time in therapy as a result and an even greater amount of time pondering the issue of sexual identity, dealing with feelings of depression and the motives that drives one to ponder suicide.

Furthermore, I have spent many years in support of a non-profit anti-child porn and exploitation group. I have read countless reports on the numbers of children exploited each year. Many of you who ignorantly vote yes in a inane yes or no poll would be alarmed at the numbers of children who are abused each year let alone the percentage of homosexuals who were abused as a child. The connection of abuse to a homosexual lifestyle is valid and a tragically ignored aspect of our humanity.

You can continue to mock and look like a fool or you can spend more time considering my position not as the caricature you have made me out to be but as a real person with real experience with the subject matter. I attended Art school where 30% or more of the population is gay. I have worked with and gone to church with a number of homosexuals. Many are friends and great people. However I will not idly stand by and submit to the woefully ignorant opinions of many on this board that environmental and nurturing issues are not as significant a factor as potential genetic predispositions in the choice of a homosexual lifestyle.

[ChinoCoug]

thanks for sharing.

[TripletDaddy]

Tooblue, that takes real courage and personal strength to tell your story. Thanks.

Out of curiosity, have you found a measure of catharsis in working with the non-profit on behalf of abused children? I have often wondered about the healing process for those who volunteer in the very area that negatively impacted them in the first place.....does the repeated exposure to the issue make it more or less difficult to move forward or does it empower the individual to a self-realization that their experiences were not their own fault, but the doing of someone else?

If it is too personal to discuss, no worries and apologies for asking an inappropriate question. Just wanted to say that I really respect your post.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Tooblue, that takes real courage and personal strength to tell your story. Thanks.

Out of curiosity, have you found a measure of catharsis in working with the non-profit on behalf of abused children? I have often wondered about the healing process for those who volunteer in the very area that negatively impacted them in the first place.....does the repeated exposure to the issue make it more or less difficult to move forward or does it empower the individual to a self-realization that their experiences were not their own fault, but the doing of someone else?

If it is too personal to discuss, no worries and apologies for asking an inappropriate question. Just wanted to say that I really respect your post.

There is an idea in psychology that if you confront and immerse yourself in the trauma, that it may lose its saliency. Such work is done in post-traumatic stress disorder.

This however is slightly different than helping in a cause, but the same principle applies. You are not avoiding the subject and cues that remind you of the past abuse.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

There is an idea in psychology that if you confront and immerse yourself in the trauma, that it may lose its saliency. Such work is done in post-traumatic stress disorder.

This however is slightly different than helping in a cause, but the same principle applies. You are not avoiding the subject and cues that remind you of the past abuse.

Without talking "about" tooblue too much.....he had mentioned that he had engaged in therapy, but also volunteered. So I was wondering if such volunteerism is often a natural extension of traditional methods of therapy and healing. In other words, do professionals encourage their patients to actually seek out these opportunities as a means of expression and self-empowerment. I can definitely see the benefit, but could also appreciate the difficulty.

Again, tooblue, apologies. not intending to talk about you, only using your initial post as a frame of reference for my general questions. no disrespect intended.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Without talking "about" tooblue too much.....he had mentioned that he had engaged in therapy, but also volunteered. So I was wondering if such volunteerism is often a natural extension of traditional methods of therapy and healing. In other words, do professionals encourage their patients to actually seek out these opportunities as a means of expression and self-empowerment. I can definitely see the benefit, but could also appreciate the difficulty.

Again, tooblue, apologies. not intending to talk about you, only using your initial post as a frame of reference for my general questions. no disrespect intended.

I don't have an answer. But I see most therapists as supporting the idea and working through it if the patient initiates it. I don't see most therapists injecting it into the therapy.

[Cali Coug]

Thanks for sharing that, Tooblue. It was a powerful post.

I honestly have not read much of the other threads on this topic, but in skimming quickly it seems that you are arguing homosexuality is a choice and others are saying it isn't.

Can I ask what you mean by saying it is a choice? Because if what you mean is that a traumatic event (such as sexual abuse) can cause you to have homosexual feelings, I don't know that I would call that "choice." It isn't genetic, but it is the product of an experience so overwhelmingly powerful that it overrides genetic programming, so to speak. Is that really "choice?"

This isn't meant as a comparison, but it is peripherally similar to eating lots of your favorite food to the point you are sick to your stomach, vomiting, and then never being able to eat that food again. A very bad experience, it seems, can overcome other "natural" desires of the body and reprogram you, so to speak. If this happens with something as mildly traumatic as vomiting, I can't imagine what the effect would be with something as overwhelming as sexual abuse. Maybe the reprogramming can also be fought against, I don't know. But if this is the "choice" you speak of, I don't know that everyone is talking about the same thing. Like I said, I was only skimming.

[SeattleUte]

tooblue, I'm sorry if my posts hurt you. You tell an inspiring story of personal tragedy and triumph. You're a man of great character and an impressive artist to boot.

But I disagree that "a link between homosexuality and child abuse is well established." This in fact is an old, fortunately now discredited though still invidious prejudice against gays. The scientific community, and equally important, general public opinion (based on common experience), don't support your assertion. Anita Bryant saw her brilliant musical career go up in flames after she made this same charge against gays (she is now sorry for what she did), and the same accusation made implicitly by the Boys Scouts of America has practically wrecked the Boy Scouts' public image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Bryant

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

tooblue, I'm sorry if my posts hurt you. You tell an inspiring story of personal tragedy and triumph. You're a man of great character and an impressive artist to boot.

But I disagree that "a link between homosexuality and child abuse is well established." This in fact is an old, fortunately now discredited though still invidious prejudice against gays. The scientific community, and equally important, general public opinion (based on common experience), don't support your assertion. Anita Bryant saw her brilliant musical career go up in flames after she made this same charge against gays (she is now sorry for what she did), and the same accusation made implicitly by the Boys Scouts of America has practically wrecked the Boy Scouts' public image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Bryant

The simple fact of the matter is it is not discredited in whole by the larger community that deals with issues of abuse and sexuality but by a relative vocal few who have a vested interest in maintaining the political correctness gag over a more expansive study on the subject. To say it is discredited is to put your head in the sand and admit an unwillingness to delve deeper into the heart of the issue.

The percentages are undeniable Seattle. There is a direct correlation that cannot be argued. In the link Mike posted 1 – 7 homosexuals report being sexually abused. I have read elsewhere that 80% of incidents of sexual abuse go unreported. The Child pornography industry, supported by the so-called soft porn industry is a world wide billion dollar industry that shows predatory sexual behavior is epidemic. Common sense dictates a connection. Political sensitivities curtail open and outward expression of said connections.

I am not prepared to discuss all of my personal experiences in such an open forum. Yes, it is cathartic to find ways to reach out and help others. Sometimes however it is exceptionally difficult and painful. No, I am not nor have not suggested that it is exclusively an issue of choice. I only advocate that choice is a MAJOR factor. SEQ very perceptively outlines the issues with his thoughts posted in another thread;

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

I don't think there is a genetic cause, but I do think sexuality is mostly beyond one's control. A combination of genetic and early formative experiences (beyond one's control) probably explain most of it. The rest can probably be chalked up to the cognitive reinforcement that comes with the sense of self that is constantly being constructed and reconstructed through behaviors and reasoning.

I do think people's sexuality has a range within which it can shift. Not all homosexuality is the same, and neither is all heterosexuality. Homosexuals are often keenly aware of this fact, heterosexuals are less likely to be so.

You must understand that exposure to abuse leads to compulsive behavior that is part of a larger cycle of potentially self-destructive behavior:

http://www.stopitnow.org/asit_survivors.html

Again, I confidently assert, framed by the limitations of you intitial poll, that Homosexuality is a choice.

[SeattleUte]

General public opinion througout the United States is reflected, for example, in the prevalence of local laws making it illegal for schools to discriminate against gays in hiring teachers, and in the BSA's loss of favor with the general public. The legislative process is of course the classic venue where links such as tooblue has asserted are investigated, debated, and vetted, with the most real life consequences possible. The prevelance of local civil rights laws protecting gays' access to jobs where they interface with children is a testament to informed public opinion on this issue.