My unresolved issues concerning the church

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

That tells me that there IS reliable information that JS had relations with at least one of the married woman. You state that JS did not have relations with any of the other woman. The fact that evidence does not exist for sexual relations does not necessarily mean that relations did not exist. If he had sex in at least one of his polyandrous relations, then it makes sense that he probably had sex with the others. I'm not sure why one would assume otherwise.

Agree. However the one case that FARMS cites is based on a statement made by a daughter of Patricia Sessions. She testified that when Patricia lay on her deathbed she called her daughter to the bedside and told her that she was a daughter of the Prophet Joseph and she wanted her to know that before she passed away. Now, she could very well have been telling the truth. But it is also not impossible that she was hoping to gain some kind of fame or credibility by claiming to be one of Joseph's offspring. Since it was her word and the person who gave it to her was dead by the time she made the claim, I'm not sure we can consider that evidence to be concrete. Even Bushman stated that there was no credible evidence of sexual relations with the married women. I agree with you though that this does not mean there wasn't. It makes sense to me that there was.

[mpfunk]

I have a list of issues with the church that is simply too long to even begin to list but it is not enough to make me leave.

I know that some things I will never get a satisfactory answer too as long as I live. Blacks not being able to hold the Priesthood is my biggest issue and something that I know will always bother me. Hopefully some of the other issues will be resolved in due time.

[realtall]

Joseph Smith was jailed in Carthage on trumped up charges?

Now your mileage may vary but in my experience during seminary(and any other CES related class that I had) anytime Joseph Smith was jailed for anything it was based on 'trumped up charges by men seeking to frustrate the work of God.' I never heard a thing about any printing press.


Joseph Smith was jailed in Carthage because he smashed the printing press of the Nauvoo Expositor. His main fear was that the newpaper would incite more mob violence. The newpaper had taken to printing dissenting views and Joseph Smith got permission from the town council(who had errantly determined that the charter gave them the authority to shut down the paper) to order the sheriff and his men to break into the newpaper. He was arrested and brought to Carthage. Something about freedom of the press.

Note: I took the following from this website: http://www.lds-mormon.com/06.shtml

The website author claims to have gotten it off the BYU website but I couldn't find it there so I don't know for sure how authentic the below account is.

"The Expositor appeared on Friday afternoon, and the following morning and the Monday thereafter the city council met to consider its threat to the peace and security of the city. With the powers granted by the city charter, they declared the newspaper a nuisance, as they felt its declarations threatened the security of the city. They authorized the mayor (Joseph Smith) to see that the nuisance was abated. The Prophet instructed the city marshal to abate the nuisance which he and his men accomplished by breaking into the printing shop, throwing the press into street where it was smashed with a sledge hammer, dumping the type into the street, and burning the undistributed copies of the newspaper. Such an extralegal method of abating a newspaper was not without precedent in Illinois (though not in keeping with long established practices concerning abatement of a public press), but it was viewed as a violation to the federal Constitution which forbids destruction of property without due process of law. The city council had only the authority to abate the nuisance by suspending further publication of the paper pending a court hearing which would determine whether it was a public nuisance.

The proprietor of the paper went to Carthage and swore out a warrant for the 18 members of the city council, charging that they had violated the federal Constitution by destroying property with the resultant implication of "suppression of the freedom of the press." In response to the charge 15 members of the Nauvoo city council appeared before the justice of the peace in Carthage on Tuesday, June 25, and were bound over to the next term of the circuit court on bail of $500 each. Jointly they posted $7500 in bonds and some of them returned to Nauvoo that afternoon. Joseph and Hyrum, however, remained in Carthage to have an interview with Governor Ford. While awaiting audience with him, they were arrested on charges of treason and rioting for having used some of the Nauvoo Legion to assist the town marshal in the destruction of Expositor equipment. For this charge they were committed to the Carthage jail that afternoon. "


Kind of ironic don't you think? The part about the printing press getting smashed sounds remarkably familiar.


This one bugs me a little bit but probably isn't one of the main ones. Its the secretive nature of CES, when it comes to historical accuracy, that's really starting to get on my nerves.

[realtall]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

A more accurate statement would be that there is no concrete evidence that he had sex with any of the women who were already married. This does not mean that he didn't. It only means that if he did, we have no proof.

It is easier to accept polyandry when we assume that he did not have sexual relations with women who were already married. However, if you take a look at what happened after Joseph died I think there may be some clues about the doctrine. You seem to really know your history, so perhaps you are already aware of the case of Zina D. Huntington. She married Henry Jacobs and later became one of Josephs wives. This was with Henry's knowledge and consent. After Joseph died, she was married to Brigham Young for time. Mr. Henry Jacobs stood as a witness to that marriage. Brigham allowed Henry to stay with Zina until the saints reached Iowa. He then told him that he was "walking in another mans shoes" and that Zina was now his (Brigham's). Brigham then took Zina and the children born to Henry and no divorce was necessary. She later bore children to Brigham.

Bottom line? It appears that one with a higher priesthood could "take" (with her consent) a married woman who was supposed to be his and no divorce was necessary. When exactly sexual relations began is not clear. They just didn't talk about that stuff much. But it seems to me that a sexual relationship would be consistent with the "higher" marriage. The part I don't understand is why some were allowed to stay with the original husband. It's all very confusing. But I think I've made my opinion on the matter clear in previous threads.

That is very interesting. It is odd to me that no divorce was necessary and that some were allowed to stay with their 1st husbands(That term sounds wierd) but maybe divorce was rare at that time. I don't know.

You are definitely right about it being confusing.

[Mormon Red Death]

[quote="realtall"]Several things about the church & its history have been bugging me over the last several months.

Here they are:


Joseph Smith and his 33 wives

I am less concerned with the fact that Joseph Smith had 33 wives and more concerned with the (apparent)fact that he married a fair portion of them while they were still married to someone else. Does this seem grossly out of line to anyone but me? Did the Lord tell him to do this? This seems wildly inconsistant with any definition of marriage that I've ever heard of be it the Old Testament, BoM, or the D&C. And yes, I'm still a little upset that the church is still using the, "Shhhh...it's a secret" method on the whole thing(including the fact that he even had more than one wife).


The Salamander Letter

The common reasoning for this one is, 'Well, church leaders make mistakes, too.' This seems like an important thing to make mistakes on. Isn't the prophet entitled to revelation for the whole church? Didn't he go home and pray about the authenticity? And he still made a mistake? There is something about this that I am just not getting.

Mountain Meadows Massacre

I guess that this one is not that big of a deal to me. From what little reading I have done on the subject, there has never been reliable information that Brigham actually ordered the murder of those poor people. Some local nutjobs, I guess.

Polygamy

Begun by Joseph Smith(shhhh...its a secret) this practice flourished for a while in the west. Brigham(not sure if I have this right) received a revelation that polygamy was never to leave the earth. In 1890 the church disavowed it due to intense pressure from the US government(or so it appears). Even so, there are reports of polygamous relationships still being sealed in the temples(though I'm uncertain as to their reliability).


The church's 'white shirt' policy for priesthood holders


Out of all your issues the one that bothers me the most is the white shirt policy. Doesn't God look on the heart? I am a financial clerk and I never wear white shirt cause that whole policy pisses me off.

As for your other stuff I think we as a people tend to look at our prophets as perfect people and of course they aren't. The ones in history who were great men did dumb and terrible things as well we just dont have very good accounts of it.

A) Abraham sent one of his wives (and first son) away from him at his wife's bequest. Does that seem like something a prophet of God would do?

B)Moses doesn't circumsize his son! What kind of leader is he?

C)Jonas gets visited from God and still doesnt go on a mission!! How rebellious can you be?

D)Peter Denies he knows Christ 3 times!

E)Paul reads Peter the riot act - Aren't the 12 supposed to be one?

As you my facetious post demonstrates prophets have always made mistakes. J. Smith, Brigham Young... to GB Hinkley It doesn't mean they weren't prophets just that they were human.

As for the polygamy and polyandry the only explanation I can give is that they were like kids in sand box who just didnt understand what it was they were doing or how to do it perfectly (its not like they had any relatives or examples of plural marriage to go off)

The only explanation for the salamander letter is that the Lord let them make a mistake to teach a lesson. Kind of like when Joseph and Martin lost the first ~100 pages of the BOM.

The mountain meadows massacre is one that I haven't read much about but what I understand those people had made an oath to avenge J. Smiths dead. Some people come to town saying they were the ones who shot old Holy Joe and is it really surprising that BY had them killed? Doesn't make it right its just you can see their motivation.

[realtall]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

The mountain meadows massacre is one that I haven't read much about but what I understand those people had made an oath to avenge J. Smiths dead. Some people come to town saying they were the ones who shot old Holy Joe and is it really surprising that BY had them killed? Doesn't make it right its just you can see their motivation.

Now that is interesting. I had never heard that the travelers from Arkansas claimed to have killed Joseph Smith.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by realtall

Joseph Smith was jailed in Carthage on trumped up charges?

Now your mileage may vary but in my experience during seminary(and any other CES related class that I had) anytime Joseph Smith was jailed for anything it was based on 'trumped up charges by men seeking to frustrate the work of God.' I never heard a thing about any printing press.


Joseph Smith was jailed in Carthage because he smashed the printing press of the Nauvoo Expositor. His main fear was that the newpaper would incite more mob violence. The newpaper had taken to printing dissenting views and Joseph Smith got permission from the town council(who had errantly determined that the charter gave them the authority to shut down the paper) to order the sheriff and his men to break into the newpaper. He was arrested and brought to Carthage. Something about freedom of the press.

Note: I took the following from this website: http://www.lds-mormon.com/06.shtml

The website author claims to have gotten it off the BYU website but I couldn't find it there so I don't know for sure how authentic the below account is.

"The Expositor appeared on Friday afternoon, and the following morning and the Monday thereafter the city council met to consider its threat to the peace and security of the city. With the powers granted by the city charter, they declared the newspaper a nuisance, as they felt its declarations threatened the security of the city. They authorized the mayor (Joseph Smith) to see that the nuisance was abated. The Prophet instructed the city marshal to abate the nuisance which he and his men accomplished by breaking into the printing shop, throwing the press into street where it was smashed with a sledge hammer, dumping the type into the street, and burning the undistributed copies of the newspaper. Such an extralegal method of abating a newspaper was not without precedent in Illinois (though not in keeping with long established practices concerning abatement of a public press), but it was viewed as a violation to the federal Constitution which forbids destruction of property without due process of law. The city council had only the authority to abate the nuisance by suspending further publication of the paper pending a court hearing which would determine whether it was a public nuisance.

The proprietor of the paper went to Carthage and swore out a warrant for the 18 members of the city council, charging that they had violated the federal Constitution by destroying property with the resultant implication of "suppression of the freedom of the press." In response to the charge 15 members of the Nauvoo city council appeared before the justice of the peace in Carthage on Tuesday, June 25, and were bound over to the next term of the circuit court on bail of $500 each. Jointly they posted $7500 in bonds and some of them returned to Nauvoo that afternoon. Joseph and Hyrum, however, remained in Carthage to have an interview with Governor Ford. While awaiting audience with him, they were arrested on charges of treason and rioting for having used some of the Nauvoo Legion to assist the town marshal in the destruction of Expositor equipment. For this charge they were committed to the Carthage jail that afternoon. "


Kind of ironic don't you think? The part about the printing press getting smashed sounds remarkably familiar.


This one bugs me a little bit but probably isn't one of the main ones. Its the secretive nature of CES, when it comes to historical accuracy, that's really starting to get on my nerves.

If the church is trying to hide this, they are doing a very poor job. It has been openly discussed and debated as long as I can remember. I think you have a straw man in this case.

[realtall]

Originally Posted by homeboy

If the church is trying to hide this, they are doing a very poor job. It has been openly discussed and debated as long as I can remember. I think you have a straw man in this case.

There is no straw man. I was speaking from personal experience.

And I doubt still that CES mentions it at all.

I would be very interested if you(or anyone else) heard even a casual mention of this incident in a seminary, institute, or a BYU religion class. I'm not being sarcastic; I'm just trying to gain an accurate picture of things.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by realtall

Joseph Smith and his 33 wives

The Salamander Letter

Polygamy

these are somewhat issues i have with the church.

joseph and his polyandric relationships are quite disconcerting considering the age, and circumstances of his marriages. he consistently lied to people around him about his dealings with his polygamous wives, one could make the argument, if commissioned from god why the need to hide what you are doing?

the salamander letter is a bigger deal than most here would consider it, which is ok, but i feel your pain on this issue. a man with his sole intention being to bring down the church is able to fool the collective church leadership? we are taught so many times that the spirit leads, guides, and directs the church how was the leadership not being sent spiritual red flags over and over and over again. lest we forget it ended up in tragedy that one could view as wholly unnecessary had the leaders 'been doing what was right.'

post manifesto polygamy is an issue that isnt really spoken of, or talked about. as you and most here know pres. woodruff issues a manifesto saying we are stopping the practice of polygamy, the church consents, and the practice is stopped. what most dont know, or dont care to think about is polygamy raged on for another 15 years until joseph f put an end to the practice and said, ok for real we are going to stop. people were instructed to lie to the goverment, some took the fall for the church, and again the church found itself being lied to by its leadership in regards to the practice of polygamy.

[pedrotea]

The polyandry thing was something that was somewhat new to me and I have to say that it is the one thing that I struggle the most with. I mean to be married to some one who has already got a spouse just really seems strange to me. But then again polygamy to me just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I hope to understand these concepts someday and perhaps someone has some insight that can help those of us that struggle with these things.

I would sure like to know how everything fits together but then I guess that faith would no longer be needed at that point… curse my feeble understanding!