Missionary work in the USA is suffering - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 01-03-2008, 08:18 PM

Bart Oates came and spoke to us as a counselor in a mission presidency. He is a former BYU football star, and played for the Giants and 49ers. He mentioned that convert baptisms in the USA are flat (I actually don't remember if he said that this was the case for the entire USA, or just the South). Then he said that in the Southwest, one of the fastest growing regions in the USA, that convert baptisms are actually DOWN. I believe he was speaking in absolute numbers, not percentage increases.

We have a good product in the form of the gospel. However I don't think we have a good product in the form of our wards.

In other words, I think the church is failing at the social level. In fact, I think wards have much less meaning, in the social context, in 2008, than they did 25 years ago. Part of this comes from only putting 1% of local tithing back into church activities. Is there any church that puts in less, and hopes to have a thriving community? We do very well for how cheap we are, but we still suffer.

I hope the gains we have made in other areas, like overseas building, extravagant temples, secular education, and urban revitalization will make up for this in ways that I can't see.

I'm no prophet. But I can see the obvious. And to me, it's obvious that wards as social units have suffered and diminished.

DrumNFeather · 01-03-2008, 08:27 PM

Part of the problem, at least in the mission I live in, is that the missionaries are not being allowed to interact with the members on the same level.

Currently, members are not allowed to have the missionaries in for a meal unless there is an investigator present. The members are allowed to bring meals to the missionaries, or pay for their meals, but not eat with them unless there is a missionary purpose behind the visit.

The missionaries have been making the rounds in our ward teaching members the "lessons," but members frequently cancel for various reasons known only to them...but I think that many would be far more willing if they could plan a meal around the lesson...but maybe I'm wrong.

When missionaries can't interact with members and "BRT" (a concept that is not being taught in the MTC anymore...so I'm told), then the members are going to be far less willing to open up their homes and let the missionaries teach their friends.

As a recently called ward mission leader, it makes for some interesting meetings.

myboynoah · 01-03-2008, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumNFeather

Part of the problem, at least in the mission I live in, is that the missionaries are not being allowed to interact with the members on the same level.

Currently, members are not allowed to have the missionaries in for a meal unless there is an investigator present. The members are allowed to bring meals to the missionaries, or pay for their meals, but not eat with them unless there is a missionary purpose behind the visit.

The missionaries have been making the rounds in our ward teaching members the "lessons," but members frequently cancel for various reasons known only to them...but I think that many would be far more willing if they could plan a meal around the lesson...but maybe I'm wrong.

When missionaries can't interact with members and "BRT" (a concept that is not being taught in the MTC anymore...so I'm told), then the members are going to be far less willing to open up their homes and let the missionaries teach their friends.

As a recently called ward mission leader, it makes for some interesting meetings.

Sounds like the Mission President's rule. He must be from Idaho.

DrumNFeather · 01-03-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Sounds like the Mission President's rule. He must be from Idaho.

It is the mission president's rule, actually...and I have to be very careful when I discuss it with the elders so I'm not "questioning leadership," around them...one elder (from Idaho) tends to frown upon that.

MikeWaters · 01-03-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumNFeather

Part of the problem, at least in the mission I live in, is that the missionaries are not being allowed to interact with the members on the same level.

Currently, members are not allowed to have the missionaries in for a meal unless there is an investigator present. The members are allowed to bring meals to the missionaries, or pay for their meals, but not eat with them unless there is a missionary purpose behind the visit.

The missionaries have been making the rounds in our ward teaching members the "lessons," but members frequently cancel for various reasons known only to them...but I think that many would be far more willing if they could plan a meal around the lesson...but maybe I'm wrong.

When missionaries can't interact with members and "BRT" (a concept that is not being taught in the MTC anymore...so I'm told), then the members are going to be far less willing to open up their homes and let the missionaries teach their friends.

As a recently called ward mission leader, it makes for some interesting meetings.

I have no problem with this policy, because the amount of time wasted by missionaries eating dinner with members (which always happens to be the time that investigators are actually home) is staggering.

We had that rule on my mission. I support it. Of course I broke it from time to time as the Spirit directed.

When I was growing up we had a ward canoe trip every year. We all drove to San Marcos. It was great. I got to know a lot of families in that context. A sparsely attended pot-luck dinner in the gym is just not the same. All of this came to an end when the new budget rules went into effect.

I just mentioned the other day that for our ward 4th of July picnic a couple of years, we had a roasted pig. That would never happen anymore. Not enough money. And we weren't a rich ward either.

MikeWaters · 01-03-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Sounds like the Mission President's rule. He must be from Idaho.

My MP was from Idaho, btw. And I support his rule. And I was always frown when my wife schedules the missionaries for dinner.

MikeWaters · 01-03-2008, 08:35 PM

Btw, one thing that makes the Oates thing interesting, is that maybe finally the church is going to come forward and say "Things are not going so well. We need to regroup, retrench, and reconsider."

You've got to think that the top-down nature of the church wastes a lot of talent.

That's why I think caring what decisions are made, at the level of the organization of programs and wards, is such a waste of time. No one gives a damn what you think, unless you are God.

Archaea · 01-03-2008, 08:36 PM

As far as cause and effect are concerned, I know too little to reach you the point Mike is with his suspicions.

As to the factual observations however, I agree that the wards probably don't function as well as they may have. Part of the problem there is the membership and part is the structure. I don't have an alternative structure or insights to add, as the problem seems unwieldy.

We're not as connected in the ward fabric as we once were. Are we the problem? Perhaps in part. Has society changed enough while the ward structure has not? Probably.

What are the solutions?

DrumNFeather · 01-03-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I have no problem with this policy, because the amount of time wasted by missionaries eating dinner with members (which always happens to be the time that investigators are actually home) is staggering.

We had that rule on my mission. I support it. Of course I broke it from time to time as the Spirit directed.

I agree that there is plenty of time wasted "camping," but it seems like a more effective way of enforcing something like this is to have the elders follow dinner up with a lesson (like they're doing in my ward now - the equivalent of the discussions) but make sure that they are limited to an hour for the whole thing or something. I'm just not sure it is a good thing to have a black and white policy on this kind of thing, when it is the only chance the missionaries have to build relationships with ward members and gain their trust.

Indy Coug · 01-03-2008, 08:37 PM

Of course, then there's my branch with over 100 baptisms in the last 24 months with piss-poor retention numbers.

01-03-2008, 08:18 PM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Missionary work in the USA is suffering Bart Oates came and spoke to us as a counselor in a mission presidency. He is a former BYU football star, and played for the Giants and 49ers. He mentioned that convert baptisms in the USA are flat (I actually don't remember if he said that this was the case for the entire USA, or just the South). Then he said that in the Southwest, one of the fastest growing regions in the USA, that convert baptisms are actually DOWN. I believe he was speaking in absolute numbers, not percentage increases. We have a good product in the form of the gospel. However I don't think we have a good product in the form of our wards. In other words, I think the church is failing at the social level. In fact, I think wards have much less meaning, in the social context, in 2008, than they did 25 years ago. Part of this comes from only putting 1% of local tithing back into church activities. Is there any church that puts in less, and hopes to have a thriving community? We do very well for how cheap we are, but we still suffer. I hope the gains we have made in other areas, like overseas building, extravagant temples, secular education, and urban revitalization will make up for this in ways that I can't see. I'm no prophet. But I can see the obvious. And to me, it's obvious that wards as social units have suffered and diminished.

01-03-2008, 08:36 PM	#8
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	As far as cause and effect are concerned, I know too little to reach you the point Mike is with his suspicions. As to the factual observations however, I agree that the wards probably don't function as well as they may have. Part of the problem there is the membership and part is the structure. I don't have an alternative structure or insights to add, as the problem seems unwieldy. We're not as connected in the ward fabric as we once were. Are we the problem? Perhaps in part. Has society changed enough while the ward structure has not? Probably. What are the solutions? __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

01-03-2008, 08:27 PM	#2
DrumNFeather Active LDS Ute Fan Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nantucket : ) Posts: 2,566	Part of the problem, at least in the mission I live in, is that the missionaries are not being allowed to interact with the members on the same level. Currently, members are not allowed to have the missionaries in for a meal unless there is an investigator present. The members are allowed to bring meals to the missionaries, or pay for their meals, but not eat with them unless there is a missionary purpose behind the visit. The missionaries have been making the rounds in our ward teaching members the "lessons," but members frequently cancel for various reasons known only to them...but I think that many would be far more willing if they could plan a meal around the lesson...but maybe I'm wrong. When missionaries can't interact with members and "BRT" (a concept that is not being taught in the MTC anymore...so I'm told), then the members are going to be far less willing to open up their homes and let the missionaries teach their friends. As a recently called ward mission leader, it makes for some interesting meetings.

01-03-2008, 08:35 PM	#7
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Btw, one thing that makes the Oates thing interesting, is that maybe finally the church is going to come forward and say "Things are not going so well. We need to regroup, retrench, and reconsider." You've got to think that the top-down nature of the church wastes a lot of talent. That's why I think caring what decisions are made, at the level of the organization of programs and wards, is such a waste of time. No one gives a damn what you think, unless you are God.

01-03-2008, 08:37 PM	#10
Indy Coug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Between Iraq and a hard place Posts: 7,569	Of course, then there's my branch with over 100 baptisms in the last 24 months with piss-poor retention numbers.