Search not the Book of Mormon for truly great allegory.

[SeattleUte]

In a sister thread I said that I would look to Greek philosophy before the Old Testament or the Book of Mormon for moral direction, and some posters mocked me, discussing some Greek myths in uninformed ways.

I did say philosophy, not mythology, but the myths are fabulous allegories, far surpassing anything else. For example, the story of Agamemnon and his beloved daughter Iphigenia, a prequel to the Iliad. All the 1,000 ships had assempbled and were ready to sail to Troy, but the god Artemis sent a contrary wind and the ships could not sail. (One of the Greeks killed a sacred deer or some such thing, angering the god.) A prophet told Agamemnon that he could eliminate the problematic winds only by sacrificing Iphigenia to the gods to atone for the homicide of the sacred animal. Torn, Agamemnon nevertheless deceived his beloved daugher into into coming to him, sending her a message saying that the great Achilles would marry her when she arrived. She came, and the clerics took hold of her and slew her on an alter. Suddenly the winds abated, permitting the trip to Troy, and the rest is history, as they say.

Agamenon returned as a conquering hero from Troy, bringing his mistress Cassandra, but his wife Clytemnestra was furious at him, not only over the mistress, but also because of Agamemnon's hand in the slaying of their daughter. Thus, Clytemnestra and her boyfriend slew Agamemnon and Cassandra as they relaxed in a soothing bath, a bloody spectacle. Much later, Agamemnon and Clytemnestra's son Orestes slew his mother, to avenge his father's murder.

There is so much meaning in this allegory I couldn't spot it all, I'm sure. Start with a father sacrificing children to his career. The evils of religious orthodoxy, or, the pain and injury of adultery. Violence begets violence, etc., it goes on and on.

Yes, this is a bloody, shocking story. But compare the allegory of Laban, where Nephi lops his head off without relfection, moral consequence, karma, whatever.

[Archaea]

You mischaracterized the arguments.

There were Greek principles which would not fly today. The lack of suffrage for women, the concept of slavery, the concept of pederasty and much more.

I love Greek philosophy but recognize it was a beginning point not an ending point. The BoM is also a beginning point, not an ending point. So they both can serve useful purposes.

[MikeWaters]

1st Nephi and esp. the Laban account should be read not as allegory but as unto psychological novel.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

In a sister thread I said that I would look to Greek philosophy before the Old Testament or the Book of Mormon for moral direction, and some posters mocked me, discussing some Greek myths in uninformed ways.

I did say philosophy, not mythology, but the myths are fabulous allegories, far surpassing anything else. For example, the story of Agamemnon and his beloved daughter Iphigenia, a prequel to the Iliad. All the 1,000 ships had assempbled and were ready to sail to Troy, but the god Artemis sent a contrary wind and the ships could not sail. (One of the Greeks killed a sacred deer or some such thing, angering the god.) A prophet told Agamemnon that he could eliminate the problematic winds only by sacrificing Iphigenia to the gods to atone for the homicide of the sacred animal. Torn, Agamemnon nevertheless deceived his beloved daugher into into coming to him, sending her a message saying that the great Achilles would marry her when she arrived. She came, and the clerics took hold of her and slew her on an alter. Suddenly the winds abated, permitting the trip to Troy, and the rest is history, as they say.

Agamenon returned as a conquering hero from Troy, bringing his mistress Cassandra, but his wife Clytemnestra was furious at him, not only over the mistress, but also because of Agamemnon's hand in the slaying of their daughter. Thus, Clytemnestra and her boyfriend slew Agamemnon and Cassandra as they relaxed in a soothing bath, a bloody spectacle. Much later, Agamemnon and Clytemnestra's son Orestes slew his mother, to avenge his father's murder.

There is so much meaning in this allegory I couldn't spot it all, I'm sure. Start with a father sacrificing children to his career. The evils of religious orthodoxy, or, the pain and injury of adultery. Violence begets violence, etc., it goes on and on.

Yes, this is a bloody, shocking story. But compare the allegory of Laban, where Nephi lops his head off without relfection, moral consequence, karma, whatever.

Excellent. The Heracles (Hercules) myths are about civilizing society. The story of Antigone deals with conflict and loyalty to the state vs. loyalty to the gods. . .

The philosophers recognized the power of myth and allegory. The story of Atlantis was probably entirely invented by Plato, and his entire Republic is an allegory - the map of the city is really a map of the soul.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Solon

Excellent. The Heracles (Hercules) myths are about civilizing society. The story of Antigone deals with conflict and loyalty to the state vs. loyalty to the gods. . .

The philosophers recognized the power of myth and allegory. The story of Atlantis was probably entirely invented by Plato, and his entire Republic is an allegory - the map of the city is really a map of the soul.

Intesting. I'll have to approach it with that in mind.

I just remembered the next phase of the story I related above. Orestes is tried for the murder of his mother, and aquitted. Though the result is not entirely satisfactory it ends the violence. Hence, the allegory is also seen as an argument in favor of civilization, law courts, etc., whatever the imperfections. This is significant given the place of the Iliad and its related stories as founding epics for Greece.

There are numerous permutations of the above. These are not the only versions.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You mischaracterized the arguments.

There were Greek principles which would not fly today. The lack of suffrage for women, the concept of slavery, the concept of pederasty and much more.

I love Greek philosophy but recognize it was a beginning point not an ending point. The BoM is also a beginning point, not an ending point. So they both can serve useful purposes.

I think the rise of our civilization required both Greek philosophy and the Bible. Christinity, in fact, is a synthesis of the two (though anamalously FARMS has defined this ynthesis as the Great and Abominable Church, ignoring, as you know, that Paul and the Gospel authors were Greek educated and Greek speakers and writers).

[All-American]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I think the rise of our civilization required both Greek philosophy and the Bible. Christinity, in fact, is a synthesis of the two

With you so far-- a really good point, actually.

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

(though anamalously FARMS has defined this ynthesis as the Great and Abominable Church, ignoring, as you know, that Paul and the Gospel authors were Greek educated and Greek speakers and writers).

But then you did this.

There are a LOT of Hellenistic ideas found even in the New Testament which were certainly a full-fledged part of the church Jesus established. The thing decried by the church is not the contribution Hellenistic thought made for the church-- it is rather the truths and principles that Hellenism (among other influences, Judaism being one of them) effectively engulfed and obliterated.

Anybody who says that Hellenism=Apostasy is being lazy (myself included).

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by All-American

There are a LOT of Hellenistic ideas found even in the New Testament which were certainly a full-fledged part of the church Jesus established. The thing decried by the church is not the contribution Hellenistic thought made for the church-- it is rather the truths and principles that Hellenism (among other influences, Judaism being one of them) effectively engulfed and obliterated.

Anybody who says that Hellenism=Apostasy is being lazy (myself included).

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/disp...le=jbms&id=168

"When Jewish Christianity and Greek culture met head-on in the Gentile mission field in the middle of the first century, a great battle of beliefs and lifestyles arose. The Greeks' worldview eventually won, and Jewish Christianity was revised to make it more attractive and appealing to a Greek audience.

* * *

"Clearly, whatever denominational name we choose to give it, the earliest apostate church and the great and abominable church that Nephi and John describe are identical. The fact is, we don't really know what name to give it. I have proposed hellenized Christianity, but that is a description rather than a name."

This is my favorite FARMS article ever. It speaks volumes and volumes. They really are breathtakingly ignorant of history over there. They are beyond lazy.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

This is my favorite FARMS article ever. It speaks volumes and volumes. They really are breathtakingly ignorant of history over there. They are beyond lazy.

So you pick the worst and label it as the sole organizing thought within the entire body?

Of course, that is an absurd statement and not endorsed by the Church, just one guy whose work was probably not reviewed in this instance.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

So you pick the worst and label it as the sole organizing thought within the entire body?

Of course, that is an absurd statement and not endorsed by the Church, just one guy whose work was probably not reviewed in this instance.

I honestly believe FARMS is a dastardly organization that deliberately purveys lies. They are the propaganda arm of the LDS Church and they have about as much integrity as Joseph Goebbels. Their stuff on ancient America is just as bad.