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Archaea · 09-24-2009, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I want to add one more thing:

Removing homosexuality from the list of "mental illnesses" definitely had a political element to it. A psychiatrist I know, that was around at that time, told me about it, briefly. That particular convention was apparently in Dallas, and he talked about the demonstrations and such. Usually in science, we don't have demonstrations. It wasn't simply a matter of crunching numbers and presenting results and everyone voted "aye."

Now having said that, I think time has demonstrated that it was the correct decision. And you would be hard-pressed to find any psychiatrist who feels like it should be considered a mental illness.

Although I might agree with you, that the former characterization of homosexuality as a mental illness to be erroneous, the methodology employed to have it removed, as I recall them, is not one of which the profession should be proud. Those polarized protests didn't lend a whole lot of credence to the scientific presentations.

SeattleUte · 09-24-2009, 08:07 PM

I think people who follow BYU law school consider Hafen to have been no Rex Lee.

Archaea · 09-24-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I think people who follow BYU law school consider Hafen to have been no Rex Lee.

He was not of Rex's caliber but few will be. However, Dean Hafen was not incompetent and IMHO, better than the current nomination in terms of credentials and experience. I'm not speaking of Professor Gordon but the current flavor of the month. The new appointment seems to be really watered down fare. Dean Rasband. http://www.law2.byu.edu/news/item.php?num=400 There's nothing terribly wrong with him, Harvard law grad, Judge Wallace clerk and a few years at Perkins Coie, but there's nothing that compares with Rex Lee and the school seems to be going in the opposite direction. Instead of procuring more prestigious professors, we seem to have less and less.

Archaea · 09-24-2009, 09:13 PM

I don't really know anything, the more I ponder the issue about anybody's sexuality other than my own. But in discussing whether people are granular, binary, or trinary, straight, gay or bi, with a friend, she explained it, that perhaps it's more like this, as gayness among women appears to differ than it does among men.

She argued women often seek emotional connection and if they can get it from another woman, that's fine and if they get it from a man that's fine, and then it translates into a sexual connection. Not certain how true that is, but it was an angle I hadn't considered previously.

SeattleUte · 09-25-2009, 01:42 AM

"It's complicated" is the new "we don't know why they banned blacks."

Why do they think the fact it's complicated supports their bigotry? I'd respect them more if they just said gay sex is sinful, they don't care about the psysiology or psychology.

SoonerCoug · 09-25-2009, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

I've met him and his wife Marie on a few occasions (though they wouldn't know me from Adam) and whatever one thinks of his position on homosexuality, he certainly is not an idiot.

Well I'm related to him by marriage and have been to his house on several occasions, and I think he is an idiot.

SeattleUte · 09-25-2009, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

Well I'm related to him by marriage and have been to his house on several occasions, and I think he is an idiot.

I have a hunch he was not well respected by the faculty. It's just a feeling.

Archaea · 09-25-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

Well I'm related to him by marriage and have been to his house on several occasions, and I think he is an idiot.

Argument by authority or argument by association? Hmm....

You can do better than that Sooner.

Tex · 09-25-2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

Well I'm related to him by marriage and have been to his house on several occasions, and I think he is an idiot.

*shrug* Okay.

MikeWaters · 09-25-2009, 10:25 PM

Laws in Science are disproven by exceptions.

However, a not-completely-correct law can still be useful. That is, in most cases, its predictions will be correct, or correct enough.

Relgious law faces the same problem. It has a hard time with the exceptions. Gender is an eternal feature of every person, that was present in the premortal existence? Ok. What about intersex individuals? What do we do about them in the here and now?

There is no unifying LDS religious theory that allows us to understand why gays exist. Sure, I know people like Tex have their theories, which they think are obviously correct--that it is a sinful choice not much different than an urge to steal, kill or rape.

So we have people like this GA that weigh in, in the absence of a unifying theory, and it really just muddles things. On the other hand, as tempting as it might be to have a unifying theory, it is probably better that there is not one. Because there is a very good chance, in my opinion, that the theory would neither be accurate nor helpful.

Let us each work out our salvation with fear and trembling. And about gays, treat them with love and dignity, invite them into our lives, bring them into our church family as far as they are "legally" allowed, and let God work it out.

09-24-2009, 08:07 PM	#12
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	I think people who follow BYU law school consider Hafen to have been no Rex Lee. __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster

09-24-2009, 09:13 PM	#14
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	I don't really know anything, the more I ponder the issue about anybody's sexuality other than my own. But in discussing whether people are granular, binary, or trinary, straight, gay or bi, with a friend, she explained it, that perhaps it's more like this, as gayness among women appears to differ than it does among men. She argued women often seek emotional connection and if they can get it from another woman, that's fine and if they get it from a man that's fine, and then it translates into a sexual connection. Not certain how true that is, but it was an angle I hadn't considered previously. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

09-25-2009, 01:42 AM	#15
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	"It's complicated" is the new "we don't know why they banned blacks." Why do they think the fact it's complicated supports their bigotry? I'd respect them more if they just said gay sex is sinful, they don't care about the psysiology or psychology. __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster

09-25-2009, 10:25 PM	#20
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Laws in Science are disproven by exceptions. However, a not-completely-correct law can still be useful. That is, in most cases, its predictions will be correct, or correct enough. Relgious law faces the same problem. It has a hard time with the exceptions. Gender is an eternal feature of every person, that was present in the premortal existence? Ok. What about intersex individuals? What do we do about them in the here and now? There is no unifying LDS religious theory that allows us to understand why gays exist. Sure, I know people like Tex have their theories, which they think are obviously correct--that it is a sinful choice not much different than an urge to steal, kill or rape. So we have people like this GA that weigh in, in the absence of a unifying theory, and it really just muddles things. On the other hand, as tempting as it might be to have a unifying theory, it is probably better that there is not one. Because there is a very good chance, in my opinion, that the theory would neither be accurate nor helpful. Let us each work out our salvation with fear and trembling. And about gays, treat them with love and dignity, invite them into our lives, bring them into our church family as far as they are "legally" allowed, and let God work it out.