(Im)mutability of cross-gender attraction?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by T Blue

*Click* Yes you have crossed into Douche status from just being a Prick.

I don't see any reason to capitalize douche or prick. I don't think they apply to him more than you in any case, but don't get distracted: it is a grammatical point I'm making here.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by T Blue

*Click* Yes you have crossed into Douche status from just being a Prick.

Wrong messenger.

[All-American]

Actually, I think he brings up a valid point. If gender orientation is natural and immutable, either in the case of heterosexuality or homosexuality, it has serious repercussions in the discussion over same sex marriage.

SU may not think it deserves close attention, but the American Psychological Association apparently disagrees, as do those hateful Evangelical hacks in the Log Cabin Republicans and the right wing fringe fanatics at Mother Jones.

[All-American]

And by the way . . . still waiting on your explanation as to why hundreds of gays insist that their orientation was their own choice.

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=143

[Levin]

Originally Posted by All-American

And by the way . . . still waiting on your explanation as to why hundreds of gays insist that their orientation was their own choice.

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=143

Logical fallacies are running amok here.

That some gays choose their orientation does not mean that others do not. It proves nothing except that some gays choose their orientation.

SU's point has the most logical coherence b/c he raises the discussion to the general level of sexuality, instead of going down one layer to hetero- and homo-. And so from that level, if heterosexuals do not choose their orientation, why is it not likely that homosexuals do not choose theirs either?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

And by the way . . . still waiting on your explanation as to why hundreds of gays insist that their orientation was their own choice.

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=143

At an estimated world population of 6,602,224,175, if we estimate (conservatively) that 3% of them are gay, then there are 198,066,725 gays.

Let's use your figure of "hundreds" and call that 999 persons.

The proportion of gay persons whose orientation would be their own choice, in this scenario is 0.00000504 which is 0.000504%.

So let's get this straight, you are demanding an explanation about the 0.000504% of gays that chose their own orientation?

If you don't like these numbers, present your own, and we can discuss the differences.

[CrazyHorse]

I'm surprised that women can be attracted to men, let alone men. I'm positive that if I was a girl I would be gay.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

At an estimated world population of 6,602,224,175, if we estimate (conservatively) that 3% of them are gay, then there are 198,066,725 gays.

Let's use your figure of "hundreds" and call that 999 persons.

The proportion of gay persons whose orientation would be their own choice, in this scenario is 0.00000504 which is 0.000504%.

So let's get this straight, you are demanding an explanation about the 0.000504% of gays that chose their own orientation?

If you don't like these numbers, present your own, and we can discuss the differences.

Your stats teacher is somewhere crying right now.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

At an estimated world population of 6,602,224,175, if we estimate (conservatively) that 3% of them are gay, then there are 198,066,725 gays.

Let's use your figure of "hundreds" and call that 999 persons.

The proportion of gay persons whose orientation would be their own choice, in this scenario is 0.00000504 which is 0.000504%.

So let's get this straight, you are demanding an explanation about the 0.000504% of gays that chose their own orientation?

If you don't like these numbers, present your own, and we can discuss the differences.

Thank you.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

At an estimated world population of 6,602,224,175, if we estimate (conservatively) that 3% of them are gay, then there are 198,066,725 gays.

Let's use your figure of "hundreds" and call that 999 persons.

The proportion of gay persons whose orientation would be their own choice, in this scenario is 0.00000504 which is 0.000504%.

So let's get this straight, you are demanding an explanation about the 0.000504% of gays that chose their own orientation?

If you don't like these numbers, present your own, and we can discuss the differences.

You're painting a false analogy here. You're using as the basis of comparison the number of gays in the world (though, to your credit, you're using a conservative estimate). You then compare against that figure the number of gays associated with one particular website that claims that their orientation was their choice. For the percentage you give to hold, you would have to be certain that no gay not associated with that group believes that their orientation was a choice.

Originally Posted by Levin

That some gays choose their orientation does not mean that others do not. It proves nothing except that some gays choose their orientation.

SU's point has the most logical coherence b/c he raises the discussion to the general level of sexuality, instead of going down one layer to hetero- and homo-. And so from that level, if heterosexuals do not choose their orientation, why is it not likely that homosexuals do not choose theirs either?

I will agree that many or most homosexuals do not choose their orientation-- but some do. And that has important implications, as it suggests that the argument of hard and fast 100% immutability has serious flaws. From the third article I referenced above:

[A] political and scientific consensus . . . has emerged over the last century and a half: that sexual orientation is inborn and immutable, that efforts to change it are bound to fail, and that discrimination against gay people is therefore unjust. But as crucial as this consensus has been to the struggle for gay rights, it may not be as sound as some might wish. While scientists have found intriguing biological differences between gay and straight people, the evidence so far stops well short of proving that we are born with a sexual orientation that we will have for life. Even more important, some research shows that sexual orientation is more fluid than we have come to think, that people, especially women, can and do move across customary sexual orientation boundaries, that there are ex-straights as well as ex-gays.