1 Cor 10:13 Misinterpreted?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by pelagius

Jay, I think you are being too hard on the standard interpretation. I think grace is pretty fully part of it. Even in that view the idea isn't that you can overcame temptation by yourself it is that because you have entered into a covenant with God that he will give you the strength to "escape" from the temptation. The last part of the verse clearly indicates that God will make an escape possible. I don't think I have heard the standard view ever contradict that notion. That makes this verse very much about grace.

My only objection is to the word "temptation." I think Paul is talking more generally about testing from God as reflecting in modern translations. Still, its not like the word temptation is that far off:

πειρασμὸς

has both meanings, trial or to temptation. It's used twice in this scripture. However the second time it's used as a aorist infinitive.

So Pelagius, I agree with you. Let AA or Solon contradict me.

πειρασμὸς ὑμᾶς οὐκ εἴληφεν εἰ μὴ ἀνθρώπινος πιστὸς δὲ ὁ θεός ὃς οὐκ ἐάσει ὑμᾶς πειρασθῆναι ὑπὲρ ὃ δύνασθε ἀλλὰ ποιήσει σὺν τῷ πειρασμῷ καὶ τὴν ἔκβασιν τοῦ δύνασθαι ὑπενεγκεῖν

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by pelagius

Jay, I think you are being too hard on the standard interpretation. I think grace is pretty fully part of it. Even in that view the idea isn't that you can overcame temptation by yourself it is that because you have entered into a covenant with God that he will give you the strength and provide a way to "escape" from the temptation. The last part of the verse clearly indicates that God will make an escape possible. I don't think I have heard the standard view ever contradict that notion. That makes this verse and the standard view very much about grace even if most commentators don't make that explicit.

My only objection is to the word "temptation." I think Paul is talking more generally about testing from God as reflecting in modern translations:

Doesn't the standard interpretatioin imply a possibility for perfection, then?

If the escape = abstinence from sin, and this is grace based in that God is the one providing the escape, how does one reconcile that with the idea that we are all sinners and not one of us is successful in this escape? God doesn't seem to be living up to his part of the bargain if the escape truly is the triumph over temptation by abstaining from sin.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Doesn't the standard interpretatioin imply a possibility for perfection, then?

If the escape = abstinence from sin, and this is grace based in that God is the one providing the escape, how does one reconcile that with the idea that we are all sinners and not one of us is successful in this escape? God doesn't seem to be living up to his part of the bargain if the escape truly is the triumph over temptation by abstaining from sin.

I don't think so. I think the idea here is that there is no temptation (or "test," if you prefer) that is insurmountable. There is nothing that Satan, or God for that matter, can throw at a human that he is not ultimately capable of overcoming.

To believe otherwise, to me, suggests a doctrine of predestination. If there is some certain temptation or test that cannot ever be overcome, does that not predestinate the person afflicted with it to sin?

Sin is a choice. Yielding to temptation is a choice. That we make that choice despite God's reaching is no referendum on the quality or efficacy of his grace. IMO.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

I don't think so. I think the idea here is that there is no temptation (or "test," if you prefer) that is insurmountable. There is nothing that Satan, or God for that matter, can throw at a human that he is not ultimately capable of overcoming.

To believe otherwise, to me, suggests a doctrine of predestination. If there is some certain temptation or test that cannot ever be overcome, does that not predestinate the person afflicted with it to sin?

Sin is a choice. Yielding to temptation is a choice. That we make that choice despite God's reaching is no referendum on the quality or efficacy of his grace. IMO.

See that interpretion seems pretty weak. It's almost not even worth talking about as it relates to sin. This scripture is used as a pep talk to give courage to someone facing temptation. You can do it! But if this scripture is just a theoretical discussion of the level Satan or God will tempt you, then it's worthless in that regard. Fresh courage take! God will not give you a temptation that theoretically is above your ability to resist, though no mortal man has ever been successful, maybe you can be the first!

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

See that interpretion seems pretty weak. It's almost not even worth talking about as it relates to sin. This scripture is used as a pep talk to give courage to someone facing temptation. You can do it! But if this scripture is just a theoretical discussion of the level Satan or God will tempt you, then it's worthless in that regard. Fresh courage take! God will not give you a temptation that theoretically is above your ability to resist, though no mortal man has ever been successful, maybe you can be the first!

The alternative is to, as I said, suggest that some men are predestined to sin. Are you prepared to address that implication of what you're saying?

There is a constant doctrinal conflict in gospel teaching between the standard of perfection, and the expectation of repentance. God expects us to fall short and thus provided a Savior, but he doesn't say, "Be ye therefore mostly righteous, when you're having a good day." He says, "Be ye therefore perfect."

Or, it's like the old story about the kid who willfully sins all the day long, and then at the end of the day expects to just repent and go on his mission. No problem, right? That's what the atonement's for, right?

The doctrine is that the flesh can always be made to be subservient to the spirit, though it may take a lifetime and more to fully understand how.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

The alternative is to, as I said, suggest that some men are predestined to sin. Are you prepared to address that implication of what you're saying?

There is a constant doctrinal conflict in gospel teaching between the standard of perfection, and the expectation of repentance. God expects us to fall short and thus provided a Savior, but he doesn't say, "Be ye therefore mostly righteous, when you're having a good day." He says, "Be ye therefore perfect."

Or, it's like the old story about the kid who willfully sins all the day long, and then at the end of the day expects to just repent and go on his mission. No problem, right? That's what the atonement's for, right?

The doctrine is that the flesh can always be made to be subservient to the spirit, though it may take a lifetime and more to fully understand how.

I don't disagree with the doctrine underlying the standard interpretation. I agree that God doesn't give us any temptation that theoretically we can't withstand (= abstain). I just don't see that interpretation as being very useful in the common setting of a pep talk to an audience preparing to withstand temptation. I'll have to mull this over more, but I think I see my interpretation as a more likely to be Paul's true intent.

[splitbamboo]

Originally Posted by jay santos

See that interpretion seems pretty weak. It's almost not even worth talking about as it relates to sin. This scripture is used as a pep talk to give courage to someone facing temptation. You can do it! But if this scripture is just a theoretical discussion of the level Satan or God will tempt you, then it's worthless in that regard. Fresh courage take! God will not give you a temptation that theoretically is above your ability to resist, though no mortal man has ever been successful, maybe you can be the first!

Romans 3:22-23 says…

"...There is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…"

The test is there and we are all constantly failing. It is a pep talk and we all need it.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by splitbamboo

Romans 3:22-23 says…

"...There is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…"

The test is there and we are all constantly failing. It is a pep talk and we all need it.

If you were standing at the edge of a cliff with a large jump to another cliff and someone told you it IS possible for everyone in this line to jump across to the other cliff, and you watched 1,000 people jump, miss, and fall to their death, would the sure knowledge that it is possible for you to jump successfully make you feel better?

The way that scripture is used in the church just doesn't sit well with me.

[splitbamboo]

Originally Posted by jay santos

If you were standing at the edge of a cliff with a large jump to another cliff and someone told you it IS possible for everyone in this line to jump across to the other cliff, and you watched 1,000 people jump, miss, and fall to their death, would the sure knowledge that it is possible for you to jump successfully make you feel better?

The way that scripture is used in the church just doesn't sit well with me.

In "the Church" we use this to help us work towards the ideal (perfection). We all know we won't get there in this life. But that doesn't mean we don't carry on.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

If you were standing at the edge of a cliff with a large jump to another cliff and someone told you it IS possible for everyone in this line to jump across to the other cliff, and you watched 1,000 people jump, miss, and fall to their death, would the sure knowledge that it is possible for you to jump successfully make you feel better?

The way that scripture is used in the church just doesn't sit well with me.

That's because you're misunderstanding (and/or distorting) how it's used in the church. We do not teach that Paul is saying, "Everytime you feel like sinning, just say a little prayer, and you'll always choose the right." I mean honestly, are you really oversimplifying this to that level? What you're suggesting totally invalidates the need for a Savior.

We teach that no sin is impossible to overcome. That doesn't mean you'll overcome it tomorrow. It doesn't mean you won't scrape your knees or break your arm along the way. But you can eventually get there.

More broadly, Paul is teaching that the Atonement is more powerful than all the combined powers of Satan; more powerful than every trial and problem mortality can present. And that is an encouraging thought.