"I know this church is true"

[All-American]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Insert another useless reason to bitch and moan about the church here.................

By the way...I know the Gospel is true.

I don't think it's as useless as you suggest. What does it mean that the gospel/church is true? What makes it true? How does that change somebody's life?

I daresay that we spend more time saying "the church is true" than we do thinking about what that means and what impact such an idea ought to have upon our way of life.

Incidentally, I can't specifically recall a general authority saying the specific phrase "the church is true." If one has recently said so, he surely is in the minority. Every instance I can recall is of a much more concrete idea upon which to place one's foot.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

For as long back as I can remember, I've hated this phrase. It does nothing for me spiritually, and I've always felt a little alienated in a church where so many seem to know what for me is un-knowable.

That's not to mention the fact that the phrase itself is a little absurd. Obviously, an object can't be "true". But, if I look beyond that to what I assume they mean--that the principles of the Gospel are true--I'm still not sure that it's an honest statement. Do they mean ALL the principles of the Gospel? Or certain favorites? How do they feel about polygamy?

I guess in the Alma 32 sense, I can see how a principle of the Gospel that can be tried and tested, can be "known". For example, I know that compassion for others brings me joy. That is a principle of the Gospel. However, there are many principles of the Gospel that can't be known IMO--what happens after we die, that Christ died for my sins, that Joseph Smith was a prophet. We can have faith, hope, belief, etc, but in my opinion, it's not ever knowledge. And I'm not sure of any place in the Gospel where "knowledge" is required. Faith, yes. Knowledge, no.

I've always told myself that I can't judge others' testimonies. However, when they say something like "I know Christ lives", aren't they placing themselves, according to their own belief system, in a place where Joseph Smith said few men who have ever lived have attained, i.e. the ability to deny the Holy Ghost and become a son of perdition?

Does anyone else feel this way? I'm really not trying to nitpick here. To me, it's an important issue, in that I feel like it alienates people of other faiths, some of our own faith, and de-emphasizes the role of faith in our lives. Besides, it just seems dishonest. And even a little creepy.

For you, it may be difficult to accept that someone could have that knowledge and I can appreciate that it can be difficult to accept it.

But for those who say it, how can we honestly disagree with them? They are speaking for themselves when they say it.

While on my mission, I had a good friend, Anziano (Elder) Fiorelli - we were never companions but lived in the same apartment in three different cities - who was a native Italian. He was a convert and was one of the few people I have known whom I would describe as a spiritual giant. When he bore that he knew of the truthfulness of the Gospel and the restoration, there was absolutely no doubt that he was telling the truth.

I've always used the phrase "I believe" when I've stood up in testimony meeting. That works for me. But after being around Pasquale Fiorelli, I have never felt the need to criticize anyone who claimed that they knew something.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by All-American

I don't think it's as useless as you suggest. What does it mean that the gospel/church is true? What makes it true? How does that change somebody's life?

I daresay that we spend more time saying "the church is true" than we do thinking about what that means and what impact such an idea ought to have upon our way of life.

Testimony would be more uplifting more often, if people thought about the facts of circumstances giving rise to their faith, thought about what they wanted to say and expressed it as best they could, instead of trying to be part of the Joneses.

Expressions of gratitude are wonderful and usually well received.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Archaea

If it were disrespectful, it would be fun to have six or seven guys and gals get up.

First one gets up and says, "I have faith in the BoM principles."

Responding gets up, "I know the BoM to be true."

To which another rises, and states, "The Book of Mormon is a remarkable document which has increased my appreciation for Jesus Christ."

And have a bunch of rebutters to counter the onslaught from the mullahs.

This statement does not make you a mullah.

What do you think it mean to say the church is true? It has so many possibilities (many of which have been referenced here) that it is certainly hard to criticize someone else for using the phrase. Who knows what they mean. The real point, I think, is that if you don't want to say it, don't say it. But just as no one should criticize you for saying you have faith the BoM is true, so I think no one should criticize someone else for saying they know the Church is true.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by All-American

I don't think it's as useless as you suggest. What does it mean that the gospel/church is true? What makes it true? How does that change somebody's life?

I daresay that we spend more time saying "the church is true" than we do thinking about what that means and what impact such an idea ought to have upon our way of life.

Incidentally, I can't specifically recall a general authority saying the specific phrase "the church is true." If one has recently said so, he surely is in the minority. Every instance I can recall is of a much more concrete idea upon which to place one's foot.

You guys bitch about irrelevant and useless stuff.

I bitch about you guys bitching.

It's one eternal round.

[SoonerCoug]

When I was in the MTC, one of our RM Russian instructors taught us that we should NEVER say "I know the Church is true" in Russian because it sounds stronger in Russian than it does in English, and if we tell Russians that we "know the Church is true" it will just rub them the wrong way.

I've always wondered if this instructor used the language excuse to encourage us to use more moderate language, or if he really believed that "I know the Church is true" sounds less extreme in English than it does in Russian.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

When I was in the MTC, one of our RM Russian instructors taught us that we should NEVER say "I know the Church is true" in Russian because it sounds stronger in Russian than it does in English, and if we tell Russians that we "know the Church is true" it will just rub them the wrong way.

I've always wondered if this instructor used the language excuse to encourage us to use more moderate language, or if he really believed that "I know the Church is true" sounds less extreme in English than it does in Russian.

For what it's worth, the old missionary discussions in German translated the "will you" commitments to "Wollen Sie" ("do you want to" or "would you") instead of the "Werden Sie" ("will you") for a similar reason.

Missionaries usually disregarded the change and used "Werden Sie" anyway.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by All-American

I don't think it's as useless as you suggest. What does it mean that the gospel/church is true? What makes it true? How does that change somebody's life?

I daresay that we spend more time saying "the church is true" than we do thinking about what that means and what impact such an idea ought to have upon our way of life.

Incidentally, I can't specifically recall a general authority saying the specific phrase "the church is true." If one has recently said so, he surely is in the minority. Every instance I can recall is of a much more concrete idea upon which to place one's foot.

Interesting...and come to think of it, I think you're right. I have heard them say, "I know Christ lives", and I would in general tend to say that is unknowable for most of us (except for the few that J.S. said were capable of that type of testimony), but I'll make an exception for the GA's--they may have reached that point, I guess.

I actually had a SP who made it a point to ask people to be specific in their testimonies. I think it certainly adds to the quality of the testimony.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

For you, it may be difficult to accept that someone could have that knowledge and I can appreciate that it can be difficult to accept it.

But for those who say it, how can we honestly disagree with them? They are speaking for themselves when they say it.

While on my mission, I had a good friend, Anziano (Elder) Fiorelli - we were never companions but lived in the same apartment in three different cities - who was a native Italian. He was a convert and was one of the few people I have known whom I would describe as a spiritual giant. When he bore that he knew of the truthfulness of the Gospel and the restoration, there was absolutely no doubt that he was telling the truth.

I've always used the phrase "I believe" when I've stood up in testimony meeting. That works for me. But after being around Pasquale Fiorelli, I have never felt the need to criticize anyone who claimed that they knew something.

That's reasonable. I feel like I would benefit more from listening to your type of testimony than most of them I hear on Fast Sunday.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by Tex

For what it's worth, the old missionary discussions in German translated the "will you" commitments to "Wollen Sie" ("do you want to" or "would you") instead of the "Werden Sie" ("will you") for a similar reason.

Missionaries usually disregarded the change and used "Werden Sie" anyway.

Interesting.

I really don't think that "I know" is any different in English and Russian. I think this Utah boy RM was just surprised by the fact that Russians had such a negative reaction to his "I know" statements. A lot of Americans would have an equally negative reaction, IMO.

At the same time, I distinctly remember Russians sharing their conversion stories and mentioning that the first thing that attracted their attention was the fact that the missionaries always said that they knew things that were impossible to know. It piqued their curiosity.