"I know this church is true" - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

ERCougar · 03-25-2008, 09:21 PM

For as long back as I can remember, I've hated this phrase. It does nothing for me spiritually, and I've always felt a little alienated in a church where so many seem to know what for me is un-knowable.

That's not to mention the fact that the phrase itself is a little absurd. Obviously, an object can't be "true". But, if I look beyond that to what I assume they mean--that the principles of the Gospel are true--I'm still not sure that it's an honest statement. Do they mean ALL the principles of the Gospel? Or certain favorites? How do they feel about polygamy?

I guess in the Alma 32 sense, I can see how a principle of the Gospel that can be tried and tested, can be "known". For example, I know that compassion for others brings me joy. That is a principle of the Gospel. However, there are many principles of the Gospel that can't be known IMO--what happens after we die, that Christ died for my sins, that Joseph Smith was a prophet. We can have faith, hope, belief, etc, but in my opinion, it's not ever knowledge. And I'm not sure of any place in the Gospel where "knowledge" is required. Faith, yes. Knowledge, no.

I've always told myself that I can't judge others' testimonies. However, when they say something like "I know Christ lives", aren't they placing themselves, according to their own belief system, in a place where Joseph Smith said few men who have ever lived have attained, i.e. the ability to deny the Holy Ghost and become a son of perdition?

Does anyone else feel this way? I'm really not trying to nitpick here. To me, it's an important issue, in that I feel like it alienates people of other faiths, some of our own faith, and de-emphasizes the role of faith in our lives. Besides, it just seems dishonest. And even a little creepy.

SeattleUte · 03-25-2008, 09:41 PM

"I know this Church is true"="Serve the People"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve_the_People

It's a slogan.

ERCougar · 03-25-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

"I know this Church is true"="Serve the People"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve_the_People

It's a slogan.

That's the aspect of this that makes it creepy to me.

By the way, this all came about because of a discussion in Gospel Doctrine on what "unshaken faith" means. Someone mentioned it means to never doubt. I disagreed with this, but nobody else disagreed (at least no one that spoke up).

So maybe I'm out in left field on this. Maybe people really do know.

All-American · 03-25-2008, 10:01 PM

I do think we recite the line without ever really thinking what it is that we mean by it. I remember being asked by a friend in high school how it was that the church was true, or what makes it true. I hadn't ever been asked that before, and I didn't have a really good response at first.

SoonerCoug · 03-25-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERCougar

]So maybe I'm out in left field on this. Maybe people really do know.

Haven't you ever heard of knowledge by faith?

You can know something is true by the feelings in your heart and/or gut.

Source:

SoonerCoug · 03-25-2008, 10:04 PM

But in all seriousness, I know that certain aspects of the Church are true...

For example, if I treat people like crap, it usually comes back to bite me in the butt. If I'm nice to people, things usually work out better for me. Therefore, being nice leads to "blessings." I know that this is true.

ERCougar · 03-25-2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

Haven't you ever heard of knowledge by faith?

You can know something is true by the feelings in your heart and/or gut.

Source:

Awesome....I love Colbert.

Archaea · 03-25-2008, 10:05 PM

People feel convinced and firmly converted. Perhaps there are members who've actually met God but unless there are, my bet is that they have a firm emotional conviction of the veracity of the claims. Their life experiences have confirmed their beliefs and they're comfortable with what they know.

They will state this a confirmation of the Spirit, and perhaps they're right. In reality, it seems they have enough experiences which they've correlated and enough spiritual "confirmations" which they have received convincing them of the veracity of the claims.

The more I wrestle with the "knowledge" the less I feel comfortable ascribing to that concept.

People ascribe "knowledge" to things which they believe are incontrovertible. To have secret knowledge otherwise not deemed incontrovertible seems odd, but history is replete with persons and groups claiming such.

I'm more comfortable in translating "I know" with "I have a strong conviction that"....

I agree with your disagreement as to the meaning of faith.

ERCougar · 03-25-2008, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

But in all seriousness, I know that certain aspects of the Church are true...

For example, if I treat people like crap, it usually comes back to bite me in the butt. If I'm nice to people, things usually work out better for me. Therefore, being nice leads to "blessings." I know that this is true.

I agree (and even said as much). However, these are the testable principles. The real principles--at least the ones that make us unique from other religions--aren't testable, and IMO, aren't really knowable. And what's wrong with that? Why can't people say, "I know that being nice to others brings me blessings"? Or "I really feel that God hears my prayers (or Joseph Smith is a prophet) because..." This would mean so much more to me than "I know ___ is true".

Archaea · 03-25-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I agree (and even said as much). However, these are the testable principles. The real principles--at least the ones that make us unique from other religions--aren't testable, and IMO, aren't really knowable. And what's wrong with that? Why can't people say, "I know that being nice to others brings me blessings"? Or "I really feel that God hears my prayers (or Joseph Smith is a prophet) because..." This would mean so much more to me than "I know ___ is true".

Most people aren't wordsmiths and like to use rhetorical shortcuts, and some people do it to feel like part of the group. Think about it, most have a positive experience emotionally regarding the Church and its culture, hear somebody else express the swelling in their breasts a certain way, and think, "yeah, that's kinda how I feel." So they use that shortcut. Economy of thought encourages that.

03-25-2008, 09:21 PM	#1
ERCougar Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,589	"I know this church is true" For as long back as I can remember, I've hated this phrase. It does nothing for me spiritually, and I've always felt a little alienated in a church where so many seem to know what for me is un-knowable. That's not to mention the fact that the phrase itself is a little absurd. Obviously, an object can't be "true". But, if I look beyond that to what I assume they mean--that the principles of the Gospel are true--I'm still not sure that it's an honest statement. Do they mean ALL the principles of the Gospel? Or certain favorites? How do they feel about polygamy? I guess in the Alma 32 sense, I can see how a principle of the Gospel that can be tried and tested, can be "known". For example, I know that compassion for others brings me joy. That is a principle of the Gospel. However, there are many principles of the Gospel that can't be known IMO--what happens after we die, that Christ died for my sins, that Joseph Smith was a prophet. We can have faith, hope, belief, etc, but in my opinion, it's not ever knowledge. And I'm not sure of any place in the Gospel where "knowledge" is required. Faith, yes. Knowledge, no. I've always told myself that I can't judge others' testimonies. However, when they say something like "I know Christ lives", aren't they placing themselves, according to their own belief system, in a place where Joseph Smith said few men who have ever lived have attained, i.e. the ability to deny the Holy Ghost and become a son of perdition? Does anyone else feel this way? I'm really not trying to nitpick here. To me, it's an important issue, in that I feel like it alienates people of other faiths, some of our own faith, and de-emphasizes the role of faith in our lives. Besides, it just seems dishonest. And even a little creepy.

03-25-2008, 09:41 PM	#2
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	"I know this Church is true"="Serve the People" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve_the_People It's a slogan. __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster

03-25-2008, 10:01 PM	#4
All-American Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,420	I do think we recite the line without ever really thinking what it is that we mean by it. I remember being asked by a friend in high school how it was that the church was true, or what makes it true. I hadn't ever been asked that before, and I didn't have a really good response at first. __________________ εν αρχη ην ο λογος

03-25-2008, 10:05 PM	#8
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	People feel convinced and firmly converted. Perhaps there are members who've actually met God but unless there are, my bet is that they have a firm emotional conviction of the veracity of the claims. Their life experiences have confirmed their beliefs and they're comfortable with what they know. They will state this a confirmation of the Spirit, and perhaps they're right. In reality, it seems they have enough experiences which they've correlated and enough spiritual "confirmations" which they have received convincing them of the veracity of the claims. The more I wrestle with the "knowledge" the less I feel comfortable ascribing to that concept. People ascribe "knowledge" to things which they believe are incontrovertible. To have secret knowledge otherwise not deemed incontrovertible seems odd, but history is replete with persons and groups claiming such. I'm more comfortable in translating "I know" with "I have a strong conviction that".... I agree with your disagreement as to the meaning of faith. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

03-25-2008, 10:04 PM	#6
SoonerCoug Formerly known as MudPhudCoug Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Land of desolation Posts: 2,548	But in all seriousness, I know that certain aspects of the Church are true... For example, if I treat people like crap, it usually comes back to bite me in the butt. If I'm nice to people, things usually work out better for me. Therefore, being nice leads to "blessings." I know that this is true.