"Worthiness"...

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

So how does this work with a "wayward" stake patriarch? Could he have a lady on the side but still be in tune with the HG to perform his calling? Or at some point does the HG sort of bypass the patriarch's own spirituality to get the task done, sort of an automatic revelation process independent of whatever the patriarch might be up to in his life?

I don't think it's as if the patriarch would always come in and state "I've made mistakes and have lost my abilities. Replace me."

It's a good question, and a hard one to answer. We are taught that the sacrament's efficacy to those who receive it is not dependant upon the worthiness of those who bless it. It's a little different with a patriarchal blessing, because the ordinance requires a certain amount of revelation.

So, what if a patriarch is secretly cheating on his wife and embezzling money while administering blessings? I doubt most men in such a position who are simultaneously committing such sins would admit in an honest moment that they were truly operating under the influence of the Spirit. As to the efficacy of the blessing, my first reaction, more out of sense of God's fairness than out of a specific doctrine, is that the Lord still honors it.

This is a natural consequence of allowing imperfect men to administer his gospel, and I think there is room for mercy for all parties when it comes to the outpouring of his spirit.

Good question, Ma'ake.

Originally Posted by jay santos

But you also believe if you after repenting for a sin commit the same sin again, all the previous sins will come back to you as if never repented for.

You also believe time periods of perfection and elimination of sin are requisite for repentance to prove you really repented.

So by that, I don't know how anyone could ever be worthy by your definition. Is anyone ever truly repentant and therefore worthy in your world? Or does it go back to the issue that you only define sin as the stuff you don't do, the "big ones".

You and I are not going to discuss this again until you can be honest about what I've said. If all you wanted was to get out a little demagoguery, then consider it done and move on.

[K-dog]

Originally Posted by NorCal Cat

Dude, this is BASIC doctrine. You think once someone is given the Gift of the HG, the HG will ALWAYS be with you, no matter what you do or how you live your life? You can't be serious.

God's not taking back anything. The Gift of the HG means you CAN have his constant presence in your life, IF you live worthily. ONLY those that receive this gift have this opportunity.

I think you misstate the doctrine. You can have the Holy Ghost always with you as long as you are striving and repenting regardless of your sins committed. That is a slight difference in how it is said. I'm with Adam that the belief has become perverted by many members. The point is to define worthily. Does worthily mean without sinning or with repenting? You act like the question is simple and easy, it isn't.

[K-dog]

Originally Posted by Tex

I think a worthy man is a repentant man.

I think you and I might be much closer than I originally thought. My thought on it is simple. If a person is trying to apply the atonement in his life, his actions are irrelevant from the position of "worthiness" he is worthy based on that effort and can have the Holy Ghost with him always. For me worthiness isn't a checklist of things done right and wrong. It is a single item and it says "Am I trying to apply the atonement in my life?" Anyone who can honestly check that box can have the constant presence of the Holy Ghost. that is why it is different than just being inspired by the spirit and why it is given to those who have accepted Christ but not to those who haven't.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by K-dog

I think you and I might be much closer than I originally thought. My thought on it is simple. If a person is trying to apply the atonement in his life, his actions are irrelevant from the position of "worthiness" he is worthy based on that effort and can have the Holy Ghost with him always. For me worthiness isn't a checklist of things done right and wrong. It is a single item and it says "Am I trying to apply the atonement in my life?" Anyone who can honestly check that box can have the constant presence of the Holy Ghost. that is why it is different than just being inspired by the spirit and why it is given to those who have accepted Christ but not to those who haven't.

I don't disagree with this (see, wasn't that easy? ). The only time there's a checklist is for the temple recommend, a clumsy but necessary way for a man--who cannot peer into the soul of another--to determine "temple worthiness."

Other than that, I think the Spirit will always descend upon a sinful but penitent soul.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by K-dog

I think you and I might be much closer than I originally thought. My thought on it is simple. If a person is trying to apply the atonement in his life, his actions are irrelevant from the position of "worthiness" he is worthy based on that effort and can have the Holy Ghost with him always. For me worthiness isn't a checklist of things done right and wrong. It is a single item and it says "Am I trying to apply the atonement in my life?" Anyone who can honestly check that box can have the constant presence of the Holy Ghost. that is why it is different than just being inspired by the spirit and why it is given to those who have accepted Christ but not to those who haven't.

Tex always does this. He talks the legalist hard ass talk, and then when you try to pin him down he squirms and squirms until he vacates his entire position or tries to say he never took one.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Tex always does this. He talks the legalist hard ass talk, and then when you try to pin him down he squirms and squirms until he vacates his entire position or tries to say he never took one.

Stop lying, santos. It's old.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by K-dog

Just quoting scriptures doesn't help. In fact, one of my pet peeves is when someone assumes everyone else understands the scriptures the exact same way they do. I got the pet peeve by interacting with Larry Miller. He always does that and it drives me crazy. If you have a point, make it. Use verse to support it. Don't assume that I'll make your point for you because you cited a pair of scriptures.

I endorse this thought. One of my biggest pet peeves is someone backs up their opinion by quoting the brethern. When I tell them that isn't how I interpret what the brethern said, they go nuts.

It is probably a pet peeve of folks like Tex that people don't buy his opinions when he has support from his interpretation of the scriptures and the brethern.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I endorse this thought. One of my biggest pet peeves is someone backs up their opinion by quoting the brethern. When I tell them that isn't how I interpret what the brethern said, they go nuts.

It is probably a pet peeve of folks like Tex that people don't buy his opinions when he has support from his interpretation of the scriptures and the brethern.

I do take for granted that some people don't interpret the scriptures very plainly.

Originally Posted by Adam

"You have to be worthy to feel the Spirit" is a pernicious lie.

Then it's a good thing I didn't say that, eh?

[creekster]

Worthiness is, in my mind, a process (as a practical matter) and thus we shoudl be talking about a continuum instead of a dichotomy. The more obediaent and submissive to the will of God we are the more likely we are to receive psiritual direction or prompting. So, in my mind, it is not a 'pernicious lie' to say the you can't feel the spirit if you are not worthy, alhtough it could be misleading. Instead, thre are far too many factors that are part of the process to allow for such a simple correlation of casue and result. IOW, 'worhtimness' is largely a function of each person's relationship to God. Do you feel worthy? Are you striving to be obediaent? Are you trying to improve or do you know that you are backsliding and you like it? God knows your heart, and He knows His purposes, which he will fulfill in any manner that he sees fit.

[BYU71]

[QUOTE=Tex;179898]I do take for granted that some people don't interpret the scriptures very plainly.



Tex are you ever in a conversation where you say, "this is my opinion of what the scripture means." Or do you always say, " here is what the scripture means." There is a subtle difference there.