Taking our your own endowment in the temple

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Bruincoug

i can't say what Mike "wants" the numbers to say. but, if we were talking about the ordinances of baptism or marriage -- i'd say that a ho-hum or neutral experience is falling short of the mark.

true, the purpose of a given ordinance may not be "to make the participants comfortable." also, maybe this informal survey is framed poorly (what if i was uncomfortable at one point and very comfortable / spirit-filled the rest of the time? heuristic biases may lead me to report "uncomfortable")

nonetheless, as with marriage or baptism, where we build up the experience for years, or even a lifetime, talking about how sacred / wonderful / spiritual it is -- and most people don't have a positive experience, I find it somewhat troubling. of course, the easiest (and most faith-promoting) finger to wag is: the problem is in that build-up and / or preparation.

isn't the endowment -- at least according to Bushman's take on it in RSR, which i think is compelling -- designed / advertised / restored to give individual members a significant spiritual experience analogous to ancient Israel hearing the voice of God. again, maybe that experience was not "comfortable" for ancient Israel -- but hopefully it was more positive than negative. (I understand you can criticize the assumption of a such a teleological quality to ordinances. But that's a longer discussion, and I've already pointed to Bushman's treatment of the history)

Shouldn't the endowment ceremony be the spiritual high point of one's life, up to that point, in terms of ordinances?

I think a lot of people could say they were comfortable with every ordinance in the church they had experienced, UNTIL the endowment.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Shouldn't the endowment ceremony be the spiritual high point of one's life, up to that point, in terms of ordinances?

I think a lot of people could say they were comfortable with every ordinance in the church they had experienced, UNTIL the endowment.

5 people are on the top side of your scale, 4 are at the bottom. And 5 are right down the middle. If you want to apply some objective analysis, you have to conclude it's pretty much a wash, as a 5 is as neutral as you can get. We do need better temple prep. I'm with you there. I'd love it if everyone could answer 8-10. I get it that much of the temple message is symbolic and not obvious. And yet...

My wife and I must be real oddballs. She grew up in not the ideal LDS environment. Her dad is not a a member and three of her four siblings are inactive. She's had a few hangups and doubts about the way some things are done in the church and how other church members act. Growing up outside of the model LDS family situation she has seen how others react to those who aren't so ideal. Actually, I did too, as my parents were divorced when I was 12. It got old hearing about how we were a broken family and there was something wrong with us. To be honest, most of the members in our ward were mean and nasty to us when it happened.

But this happens, IMO largely because in the church the basic purpose of the gospel we fail to teach or fail to learn because we're so busy worrying about the proper behavior. We get so many messages about what we're supposed to do and not do, and guilt seems to be a major tool that is used either purposely or maybe unintentionally. If you fail in your home teaching this month you must be scum. You're a loser if you don't have your year's supply, blah, blah, blah. Of course you're a loser if you're a wife beater, child molester or porn addict. But that's by far not the only thing we use the guilt motivator for, and I'm pretty sure we overuse that method.

And yet, the temple is totally not like that. To my wife, despite some of her life long questions and concerns, the temple was a great experience. Why? because to her she saw the pureness of the gospel rather than all the fringe stuff we get caught up in. It was like the temple brought out the part of the gospel and the church that in her core she felt a part of, rather than the three-hour sunday block, the mid week activities and meetings and all the cultural stuff that she hasn't always felt a part of.

Yes, the temple presentation is different, but I think it's unfortunate if we don't get the real message of it. We see a movie about the creation and why we're here. We see the fall of man and learn why we need a savior. We make covenants that help us get back to the presence of God. I guess I'm weird for thinking the temple actually is the one clear message we should be teaching in the church, which is that all we need to do is make our covenants and do our best to keep them. Everything else will be fine because of the atonement of Christ. Once we get that, home teaching, tithing, and everything else we are asked to do has more meaning because we see it as part of our imperfect attempt to keep our end of the covenants we make. Those individual things become the means (sometimes the imperfect means) to the end rather than the end itself.

We fail our members when we lose sight of that. We fail when we teach any one aspect of the behavior we're supposed to follow without teaching how it fits into the big picture. We fail when we don't teach enough about the savior and what he did for us so that our love for him and our faith in him is what motivates us to not want to drink or to do our home teaching, rather than the guilt trip from a church leader or parent. We fail when we don't teach the joy of doing good because we want to use our agency that way. Instead, any lesson about agency seems to focus mostly on all the horrible consequences of using it unwisely. We seem to be so focused on administration and organization and trying to influence and sometimes even strongly influence or force the proper behavior, that we forget to teach the basic tools that allow people to want to live the right way, such as faith in Christ or learning to recognize and follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost. A lot of times I think the rules take away from the importance of using agency and listening to the Spirit to figure out the best thing to do. For example, heaven forbid would a guy in his 30s try to attend a YSA ward or activity. It's against the rules! And yet, when he is in tune with the Spirit and feels like he should be somewhere at a particular time he meets his EC there even if it's where "the rules" say he shouldn't be.

I'm very much in favor of being more open about the way we teach the importance of the temple. Unfortunately, it's not really at the center of our emphasis like it should be. If we taught youth more about covenants and less about all the individual dos and donts, we'd probably have a generation more able to see the big picture which would allow them to make their own good decisions rather than getting hung up on why it's hard to keep all the rules and then drop out because they don't understand the importance of one or two of them. To me, temple preparation fails because we look at it as a 3 or 4 week class in Sunday school. In reality, temple prep should be EVERYTHING we do in church. If you can go a lifetime of church activity and get totally thrown off at the temple, then it's not the crash course a couple of weeks before your temple trip that failed you. It's all your years of church teaching that did.

Sorry for sounding so hard core. I recognize I have a strong opinion on this and I respect the opinion of others, but it makes me wonder if we don't almost have two separate churches -- the church of the temple and the church of the three hour block. I'm definitely a temple guy rather than a three hour block guy. Maybe I'm just weird, but I get a whole lot more spiritual boost out of 90 minutes in the temple than I do in 3 months of Sacrament meeting and Sunday School. I wish we did a better job of unitiing the two aspects of our worship. My ward has recently had three different investigators decide not to come anymore after the shock of all the noise and irreverence in our Sacrament meeting. The bishop felt we needed to spend an entire three hour block recently teaching and talking about the importance of reverence in church. I'd say things like that as well as the actions of the members are at least as much of a problem as having a "weird" temple ceremony.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by BlueK

5 people are on the top side of your scale, 4 are at the bottom. And 5 are right down the middle. If you want to apply some objective analysis, you have to conclude it's pretty much a wash, as a 5 is as neutral as you can get. We do need better temple prep. I'm with you there. I'd love it if everyone could answer 8-10. I get it that much of the temple message is symbolic and not obvious. And yet...

My wife and I must be real oddballs. She grew up in not the ideal LDS environment. Her dad is not a a member and three of her four siblings are inactive. She's had a few hangups and doubts about the way some things are done in the church and how other church members act. Growing up outside of the model LDS family situation she has seen how others react to those who aren't so ideal. Actually, I did too, as my parents were divorced when I was 12. It got old hearing about how we were a broken family and there was something wrong with us. To be honest, most of the members in our ward were mean and nasty to us when it happened.

But this happens, IMO largely because in the church the basic purpose of the gospel we fail to teach or fail to learn because we're so busy worrying about the proper behavior. We get so many messages about what we're supposed to do and not do, and guilt seems to be a major tool that is used either purposely or maybe unintentionally. If you fail in your home teaching this month you must be scum. You're a loser if you don't have your year's supply, blah, blah, blah. Of course you're a loser if you're a wife beater, child molester or porn addict. But that's by far not the only thing we use the guilt motivator for, and I'm pretty sure we overuse that method.

And yet, the temple is totally not like that. To my wife, despite some of her life long questions and concerns, the temple was a great experience. Why? because to her she saw the pureness of the gospel rather than all the fringe stuff we get caught up in. It was like the temple brought out the part of the gospel and the church that in her core she felt a part of, rather than the three-hour sunday block, the mid week activities and meetings and all the cultural stuff that she hasn't always felt a part of.

Yes, the temple presentation is different, but I think it's unfortunate if we don't get the real message of it. We see a movie about the creation and why we're here. We see the fall of man and learn why we need a savior. We make covenants that help us get back to the presence of God. I guess I'm weird for thinking the temple actually is the one clear message we should be teaching in the church, which is that all we need to do is make our covenants and do our best to keep them. Everything else will be fine because of the atonement of Christ. Once we get that, home teaching, tithing, and everything else we are asked to do has more meaning because we see it as part of our imperfect attempt to keep our end of the covenants we make. Those individual things become the means (sometimes the imperfect means) to the end rather than the end itself.

We fail our members when we lose sight of that. We fail when we teach any one aspect of the behavior we're supposed to follow without teaching how it fits into the big picture. We fail when we don't teach enough about the savior and what he did for us so that our love for him and our faith in him is what motivates us to not want to drink or to do our home teaching, rather than the guilt trip from a church leader or parent. We fail when we don't teach the joy of doing good because we want to use our agency that way. Instead, any lesson about agency seems to focus mostly on all the horrible consequences of using it unwisely. We seem to be so focused on administration and organization and trying to influence and sometimes even strongly influence or force the proper behavior, that we forget to teach the basic tools that allow people to want to live the right way, such as faith in Christ or learning to recognize and follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost. A lot of times I think the rules take away from the importance of using agency and listening to the Spirit to figure out the best thing to do. For example, heaven forbid would a guy in his 30s try to attend a YSA ward or activity. It's against the rules! And yet, when he is in tune with the Spirit and feels like he should be somewhere at a particular time he meets his EC there even if it's where "the rules" say he shouldn't be.

I'm very much in favor of being more open about the way we teach the importance of the temple. Unfortunately, it's not really at the center of our emphasis like it should be. If we taught youth more about covenants and less about all the individual dos and donts, we'd probably have a generation more able to see the big picture which would allow them to make their own good decisions rather than getting hung up on why it's hard to keep all the rules and then drop out because they don't understand the importance of one or two of them. To me, temple preparation fails because we look at it as a 3 or 4 week class in Sunday school. In reality, temple prep should be EVERYTHING we do in church. If you can go a lifetime of church activity and get totally thrown off at the temple, then it's not the crash course a couple of weeks before your temple trip that failed you. It's all your years of church teaching that did.

Sorry for sounding so hard core. I recognize I have a strong opinion on this and I respect the opinion of others, but it makes me wonder if we don't almost have two separate churches -- the church of the temple and the church of the three hour block. I'm definitely a temple guy rather than a three hour block guy. Maybe I'm just weird, but I get a whole lot more spiritual boost out of 90 minutes in the temple than I do in 3 months of Sacrament meeting and Sunday School. I wish we did a better job of unitiing the two aspects of our worship. My ward has recently had three different investigators decide not to come anymore after the shock of all the noise and irreverence in our Sacrament meeting. The bishop felt we needed to spend an entire three hour block recently teaching and talking about the importance of reverence in church. I'd say things like that as well as the actions of the members are at least as much of a problem as having a "weird" temple ceremony.

I think this goes to my point that if people can talk about the temple beyond the standard few phrases that people use, people that are reluctant about the temple may be persuaded to give it another try.

[danimal]

I found the temple to be pretty weird the first time, and little has changed over the years. I rarely go now because of that. I don't feel peaceful, I don't feel the spirit, I just feel weird. Thinking about the symbolism perks my intellectual curiosity, but as far as spirituality, I've yet to have a very positive experience. I think it's completely unfair, as has been pointed out, to not know what covenants you are going to make and then not really have a fair opportunity to decline to make them.

I don't remember having a temple prep class, though I guess I may have had one. My preparation was reading the Book of Moses, the pamphlet on the temple, and talking to my dad, who's recollections of the ceremony were only somewhat accurate. I remember thinking the first time, "This should be great but it's just not."

[marsupial]

I remember feeling anxious during the endowment. I was worried that I was doing everything wrong, that I was going to screw up in the ceremony, etc. My mother, who was supposed to be helping me, left me hanging for most of the ceremony. Some stranger the row behind me finally took pity on me and helped.

It didn't get better the second time I went as I was met with rudeness by one of the matrons. Danimal and I had been married for just a couple of weeks. I didn't know where I was supposed to go once I got dressed because 1) it was the first time I had ever been to the Provo temple; 2) it was my first time going through for someone else and 3) it was the first time I had ever been without an escort showing me around.

I asked a temple matron where I was suppose to go next. She answered abruptly, "perhaps if you attended the temple more frequently, you would remember where you are suppose to be." I had been endowed a whopping 2 weeks! Her rudeness was surprising to me because all I ever heard was how wonderful the temple is, how it is the celestial kingdom on earth, how everyone is the same in the temple, no one is judged and how there are so many people there to help you, blah, blah blah... She made me feel stupid and defensive.

I also have issues with separating the sexes and the women covering their faces. I asked the Memphis temple president about this once when I saw him in the celestial room. He couldn't give me a good answer. If anyone has any insight, I'd love to hear it.

Getting to the temple is difficult. Temple dates suck. It is a great expense and effort to get a babysitter and then to spend the whole date on the other side of the room as your spouse unable to talk to or touch each other? It's a tough sell. I do like BlueK's perspective of it being the purest form of religion. I need to go back and take that attitude with me and see if it improves my experience.

I think it would've helped me if the covenants I was making were outlined in the temple prep class.

[MikeWaters]

Here is a thought that I bet is common:

"Since I didn't have the greatest experience in the temple ceremony, there is something wrong with me. Maybe I am unworthy or flawed or just don't have the capacity to 'get it'."

When you think of the potentially lifelong impact of being a "temple Mormon" versus a "non-temple Mormon", it is frankly bizarre how we don't prepare people. As in stupendously head-scratching.

Of course, this is a church where asking for a suggestion box is likely to get you a nice industrial-carpet static shock as you get within arm's length of the ark.

Members vote with their feet. And temples that serve as catchment for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of members stand underutilized. No doubt, most of us have been pressured to go to the temple, in one way or another. Guilt trips are common. "No one is attending ward temple night." Or other more direct intreaties.

We shouldn't need to be persuaded through these means. It should be like Lehi's dream, an opportunity to taste of the fruit of the tree of life. And I believe it is actually like that for a lot of members. But for other members, hearing from these people is mystifying. And always non-specific and sometimes grandiose.

[Bruincoug]

Originally Posted by danimal

I found the temple to be pretty weird the first time, and little has changed over the years. I rarely go now because of that. I don't feel peaceful, I don't feel the spirit, I just feel weird. Thinking about the symbolism perks my intellectual curiosity, but as far as spirituality, I've yet to have a very positive experience. I think it's completely unfair, as has been pointed out, to not know what covenants you are going to make and then not really have a fair opportunity to decline to make them.

I don't remember having a temple prep class, though I guess I may have had one. My preparation was reading the Book of Moses, the pamphlet on the temple, and talking to my dad, who's recollections of the ceremony were only somewhat accurate. I remember thinking the first time, "This should be great but it's just not."

thanks. this is almost exactly how i felt and feel -- better than i was able to express it.

[jay santos]

Hey guys, I didn't realize this site was still this active. I'll post more here I think.

I felt I was well prepped but two things I wasn't ready for was 1) the clothes specifically the hat and apron and 2) the pre-1991 oaths. I voted a 4.

edit: also the washing and anointing. I wasn't prepared for that either.

[MikeWaters]

17 votes, and no one has voted their comfort level as a 9.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by marsupial

It didn't get better the second time I went as I was met with rudeness by one of the matrons. Danimal and I had been married for just a couple of weeks. I didn't know where I was supposed to go once I got dressed because 1) it was the first time I had ever been to the Provo temple; 2) it was my first time going through for someone else and 3) it was the first time I had ever been without an escort showing me around.

I asked a temple matron where I was suppose to go next. She answered abruptly, "perhaps if you attended the temple more frequently, you would remember where you are suppose to be." I had been endowed a whopping 2 weeks! Her rudeness was surprising to me because all I ever heard was how wonderful the temple is, how it is the celestial kingdom on earth, how everyone is the same in the temple, no one is judged and how there are so many people there to help you, blah, blah blah... She made me feel stupid and defensive.

The response you got from that temple worker is inexcusable. I hate to draw lines in the church, but it does tend to illustrate to me what the 3-hour block type of mormon mentality is to me. It's task focused and judgmental with a generous helping of guilt, rather than covenant focused. Anyone in the proper spirit would be helpful, welcoming and not judgmental. Almost all temple workers usually are. I'm sorry you experienced that there, but that person probably makes similar comments to people in church.